("Best-of" from 8/2/24) Jeff Shafer, Director of the Hale Institute at New St. Andrews College, steps into “The Corner.”

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
4. 0:10It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28And now, the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:31Good evening, everyone.
12. 0:34Welcome to the Hamilton Corner here on American Family Radio.
13. 0:37My name is Abraham Hamilton.
14. 0:38The third, I am the host of this program.
15. 0:41We have J. Mac the Real, J. Mac in studio.
16. 0:46Again, for a change, not too scared to be in the line of clarity.
17. 0:53But, you know what y'all don't see?
18. 0:55It's a lot of roasting that goes on behind the scenes.
19. 0:59and most of it is perpetuated by the silent assassin, Mr. McIntosh.
20. 1:05Y'all don't hear him that much on the air, but I'm telling you, he has lots to say.
21. 1:11But thank you for tuning in to the program.
22. 1:16This evening at this very moment, many of you, if not most of you are making your
23. 1:20transition from your part-time jobs where you generate an income to your full-time jobs
24. 1:25where you cultivate an outcome.
25. 1:27outcome and as you make that move, I want to encourage you to do so with intentionality.
26. 1:32Understand in the primacy that God places on the family, refusing to allow the things
27. 1:36that are swirling around our culture and the world nationally, international affairs to
28. 1:42divert you from job one.
29. 1:45There's a lot of things happening very easy to be, it's very easy to be diverted in this
30. 1:49time period.
31. 1:51You know, it's astounding to me how the world is conveniently ignorant of the fact that
32. 1:58Israel's taking out the Hamas leader and the Hezbollah leader followed the Iranian
33. 2:08back terrorists launching rockets at the playground killing 12 Israeli children.
34. 2:14We're kind of leaves that out of the calculus.
35. 2:18It shows remarkable restraint on Israel's part, frankly, that they executed these precision
36. 2:23missions.
37. 2:24They didn't bomb any towns.
38. 2:25They didn't attack civilians.
39. 2:27They didn't, you know, do a widespread offensive.
40. 2:30They were very precise and it shows remarkable capacity as well,
41. 2:33that they were able to get Hania, Hania,
42. 2:36our every pronounce name, in Tehran.
43. 2:41But the world leaves out the part
44. 2:44about the mangled bodies of dead children following
45. 2:47all of things that transpired on October 12th.
46. 2:49Nevertheless, we, I mean, October 7th,
47. 2:52I'm sorry, not October 12th, October 7th.
48. 2:55We nevertheless must remain focused.
49. 3:01The primary means that God has established
50. 3:03to cascade his remnant generationally is the family.
51. 3:08This is actually something I'm looking forward to sharing
52. 3:11with the Darbonne Church of Christ next week
53. 3:15in Farmerville, Louisiana.
54. 3:17And again, if you're in the area, you're welcome to come,
55. 3:19but seating is limited, seating is limited.
56. 3:22So I would encourage you to get there early.
57. 3:24But we're going to talk about the centrality of family to God's plan for his kingdom,
58. 3:29amongst other things.
59. 3:30This is one of the things we're going to talk about.
60. 3:32But as you're making your transition right now to your full-time job, understand that
61. 3:39it is just that full-time commitment.
62. 3:43I've said it before, and I'll say it again, one of the things Marie and I have found with
63. 3:48interacting with our children, we found this to be true, that quantity of time gives rise
64. 3:53to quality of time. Quantity of time gives rise to quality of time. One of the not so secret
65. 4:01secrets of the discipleship relationship that parents and children should enjoy is that frequency
66. 4:08of interaction creates peer expectation. You ever wonder why people just describe this as if this
67. 4:14is an inevitable phenomenon of adolescent development. It's the Thanos of adolescent development.
68. 4:20Oh, you know, children, they get to a certain agent and tune you out.
69. 4:23Not necessarily.
70. 4:24It's not an automatic that that happens, what you're witnessing is the phenomena of peer formation.
71. 4:31Simply put, the people who spend the most time with your children, their perspectives and
72. 4:36opinions become the most important to your children.
73. 4:39It's not as if all of a sudden your children are tuning you out, it's simply that they spend
74. 4:43so much time away from you.
75. 4:46They intuit, they intuit the awareness that the time that they're with you is so infrequent
76. 4:52that it causes there to be a devaluation, so to speak, of the significance of your perspective
77. 4:58in the reality of the everyday lives.
78. 5:00To say it in a different way, if you live, for example, I'll use my hometown, if you live
79. 5:05in New Orleans, you're not necessarily going to be too focused on what people's opinions
80. 5:11of you may be in Des Moines, Iowa.
81. 5:14Why?
82. 5:15interact with them very frequently. They may have all kind of opinions about gumbo, about
83. 5:20crawfish a toufait, they may have all kinds of opinions about your habits, your dietary,
84. 5:25a consumption, your lifestyle, but because you don't interact with them that frequently,
85. 5:30you're not really moved very much about what they have to say. It doesn't mean that if you become
86. 5:35aware of what they have to say, it might not have a certain impact, but simply because they are not
87. 5:40involved intimately and frequently in your daily affairs, their perspective doesn't resonate with
88. 5:47you the same way the perspective of someone who interacts with you on a regular basis would resonate
89. 5:54with you. That's all that's happening. You know, where do children learn? And I experienced this myself
90. 6:02growing up. Where do children learn, Jordan's or our shoes they should have, they learned that from peer
91. 6:06groups. They didn't, most of the time they didn't, didn't just decide, you know what, these new
92. 6:11You balances ain't working no more.
93. 6:13I need to get these J's.
94. 6:15Usually it's a product of peer formation.
95. 6:18You have kids making fun of certain kids.
96. 6:19You have the social hierarchy establishing.
97. 6:22Their social group has determined these are the shoes you want.
98. 6:25And parents often puzzled, why does my child want to have this?
99. 6:29Why does my daughter want to have a Stanley Cup?
100. 6:32You know I have perfectly good cups and tumblers over here that are not Stanley, but why does
101. 6:36it have to be Stanley?
102. 6:37That doesn't come from home guys.
103. 6:41And what we've often feel to realize is by abandoning our children, let me say it differently,
104. 6:49by sending our children to be, here's their favorite word, socialized away from us, what
105. 6:56we're unintentionally doing is setting our children up to develop a perception of significance
106. 7:04and importance of the people to whom we send them to.
107. 7:10That's why it's not that they hit children here at a certain age and they no longer
108. 7:13listen to their parents is just that they realized over time they spend so little time with their
109. 7:18parents that their parents' perspectives begin to be less significant to them on a daily basis.
110. 7:28This is why we as parents while we have our children under our authority and in our rules we
111. 7:33should strive to be their primary influence, the primary influence in their lives because our commitment
112. 7:43is to steer them and they got with direction to rear them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
113. 7:48To the word of God we go. Second Corinthians chapter 10. There was no charge for that by the way that was
114. 7:53free. That was like free. I don't want that to take that back. Second Corinthians chapter 10.
115. 8:00I want to remind us of something here because I'll say it like Michael Jordan said it once.
116. 8:07You miss every shot you don't take. It's too often in our country particularly in our culture now
117. 8:18Believers absent ourselves from significant discourse.
118. 8:26And as a result, we lose the opportunity
119. 8:30to be salt and light on many fronts
120. 8:31because we allow the world to intimidate us
121. 8:33from engaging in certain conversations.
122. 8:35But the word of God says this,
123. 8:36second Corinthians chapter 10, verses three through five,
124. 8:39very familiar passage of scripture,
125. 8:42says this, for though we walk in the flesh,
126. 8:45we do not war according to the flesh.
127. 8:48For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh."
128. 8:52Some translations there say they are not carnal.
129. 8:57For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh,
130. 9:00but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
131. 9:08Some translations say there.
132. 9:10For the destruction of strongholds,
133. 9:14verse five, for we are destroying speculations
134. 9:19Christians, and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God.
135. 9:23And we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
136. 9:32Hamilton Corner PSA, Public Service Announcement, if you are in Christ, for though we live in
137. 9:38our natural bodies, for though we walk in our natural bodies, we do not wage war according
138. 9:45to naturalism.
139. 9:47Although we walk in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh.
140. 9:54Spiritual warfare is a reality.
141. 9:56It is not a warfare that is prosecuted in the flesh.
142. 10:00And let me be clear.
143. 10:03It's not that we don't do things naturally.
144. 10:06The source of our potency, however, is not of the flesh.
145. 10:10The source of our stratagems, strategies are not fleshly originated.
146. 10:18They do not stem from the flesh.
147. 10:20spiritual wisdom that we receive that gives us marching orders that we execute.
148. 10:27Naturally, I would argue one of them on a national level was seeing Roe versus Wade overturned.
149. 10:34There's no doubt that seeing Roe overturned was a feature of spiritual victory, spiritual warfare,
150. 10:42and victory. But it included a download of wisdom from God with practical strategy to implement
151. 10:49then move the court ultimately to see truth and wisdom.
152. 10:56So in the scripture says the weapons of our warfare are not
153. 10:59carnal and out of the flesh. It doesn't mean we don't do anything naturally.
154. 11:03It means that we don't rely upon a strong over the flesh. It means we don't rely upon
155. 11:09the genesis of our engagement is not the flesh.
156. 11:13But then the word of God explains to us not only are the weapons of our warfare and not carnal
157. 11:17out of the flesh, but they are divinely powerful. The potency of our spiritual weaponry is God
158. 11:26Himself. See, it's not that we're waging. The scripture refers to the Word of God as the sword
159. 11:33of the Spirit. It's a sword, but it's not wielded, carnally. It's not wielded by the flesh. It's the
160. 11:40sword that the Spirit of God wields through us as His vehicles. The weapons of our warfare are so
161. 11:50divinely powerful that they are sufficient for the destruction of fortresses,
162. 11:57the destruction of strongholds, much of the destruction that has taken root in our day.
163. 12:04The scripture diagnosis is perfectly for we are destroying speculations.
164. 12:09King James there says we are destroying imaginations, vain imaginations.
165. 12:15that terminology, that translation is rendered from the Greek phrase,
166. 12:21lagi's maus, which is a Greek phrase that lends toward the English root word
167. 12:27logic. We are destroying lagi's maus, speculations, ideologies. Much of the
168. 12:37spiritual warfare that is transpiring, when we engage in spiritual warfare, we are
169. 12:42combating demonic ideology. Why am I focused on ideology? Because as you heard me say numerous
170. 12:49times, the great Francis Shafer said something very similar, ideas have consequences. Bad ideas
171. 12:59create casualties. Antichrist ideas create eternally spiritual captives, eternal captives,
172. 13:10To say it simply, a people that is gripped by a rejection of God, a rejection of Messiah,
173. 13:20the consequences are eternal.
174. 13:23Damnation.
175. 13:24You understand what I'm saying?
176. 13:30Ideas are the driving force, are the foundational mechanism for behavior.
177. 13:40In times past in America, you didn't have adults running around talking about, I'm afraid
178. 13:44put me in a suit trying to bark. You didn't have adults trying to make a case for intimate
179. 13:50relationships between children and adults. You didn't have adults running around trying
180. 13:54to say, oh, let love is love. Went too long ago when homosexuality was diagnosed as a social
181. 14:02pathology, a mental disorder. What's happened? The ideology in our culture has changed, which
182. 14:10has resulted in a change in behavior. For make no mistake about it, the scripture says
183. 14:18that the weapons of our warfare are divinely powerful,
184. 14:22no matter how strong and entrenched certain
185. 14:26like these miles may be, they're not more potent than our God.
186. 14:34So I simply want to encourage you,
187. 14:37as I'm encouraging myself to study the show ourselves approved,
188. 14:40to understand what we believe,
189. 14:42to understand why we believe it,
190. 14:43to be able to reasonably articulate it
191. 14:45to the watching and dying world
192. 14:48because eternity hangs in the balance.
193. 14:51in the truth of the King of Glory,
194. 14:53and salvation and Messiah is worth fighting for.
195. 15:00You've heard a lot about saving babies on this show.
196. 15:02That's because it's important to me personally,
197. 15:05and let me just be frank with you.
198. 15:06We need to save them.
199. 15:08That's why we've partnered with Preborn,
200. 15:10the nation's leader in introducing mothers
201. 15:12with unplanned pregnancies to their babies.
202. 15:15And once she hears that heartbeat
203. 15:16and sees that precious life growing inside of her,
204. 15:19she is twice as likely to choose life.
205. 15:22Now that's a miracle.
206. 15:23But quite honestly, if we don't save them, who will?
207. 15:27Preborn receives no government funding,
208. 15:29so their work is completely dependent on us.
209. 15:32Preborn has rescued over 280,000 babies,
210. 15:35and that's not all.
211. 15:36They provide love, support, and counseling
212. 15:39for up to two years for free, saving lives and souls.
213. 15:43One ultrasound is just $28, or $140 helps
214. 15:47to rescue five babies' lives.
215. 15:49Abortion doesn't stop, so we can't.
216. 15:52Together, you and I can save lives.
217. 15:54Just dial pound250 on your cell and say the keyword baby.
218. 15:59That's 250 baby or go to preborn.com.
219. 16:02That's preborn.com.
220. 16:10Shiting light into the darkness.
221. 16:13This is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
222. 16:16Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner, Abraham Hamilton.
223. 16:19The third here I am delighted to have on the program
224. 16:22a brother in Christ who I had the privilege to meet
225. 16:26at a, I guess I would call it a planning session
226. 16:30to restore truth to our society
227. 16:31and directly confront Obergefell versus Hodges, frankly.
228. 16:36The brother I'm talking about is none other than Jeff Schaeffer,
229. 16:40who is the director of the Hale Institute
230. 16:42at New St. Andrews College.
231. 16:44He graduated with honors from
232. 16:45the Regent University School of Law.
233. 16:47Early in his legal career,
234. 16:49he operated a general practice firm in Cincinnati
235. 16:51with a particular emphasis on criminal defense litigation.
236. 16:54thereafter he practiced in a law partnership focusing on elections law and civil constitutional
237. 16:59cases. From 2005 to 2020, he served as senior counsel with Alliance Defending Freedom at
238. 17:04its Washington, D.C. and Scottsdale, Arizona offices. Mr. Shafer has litigated public interest
239. 17:10cases in federal and state trial and appellate courts throughout the United States, as well
240. 17:15as developing academic and advocacy initiatives on matters of policy concern. Outside of the
241. 17:21courtroom here suggests a wide array of audiences in academic and community venues in the U.S.
242. 17:27and abroad on matters of legal and cultural interest. My guest is none other than Jeff
243. 17:32Shafer. Jeff, thank you for joining me here on the program.
244. 17:34Yes, it's great to be able to speak with you Abe. Thank you so much for having me.
245. 17:39Oh, the pleasure is mine. And I'll just say this right now. I wanted to have this conversation
246. 17:44with you because your presentation was phenomenal. And I wanted to make sure that the Hamilton
247. 17:51corner audience got to benefit from your wisdom and i think it's it's timely in
248. 17:55its profound
249. 17:56and uh... i'm excited about being able to take on an issue
250. 18:00that should have been addressed before but i'm grateful that we're dressing it
251. 18:03now but before i get ahead of myself
252. 18:05would you please share with the audience
253. 18:07what the hail institute at new state andrew's college
254. 18:13it is a uh... relatively recent initiative of the college
255. 18:18and it's focused on matters particularly of jurisprudence.
256. 18:22The Hale Institute comes from, well, is named after Sir Matthew Hale,
257. 18:29who is the 17th century jurist in England of quite some renown and capability.
258. 18:35And it was in the common law heritage in which he was operating.
259. 18:40And of course, one of the things Raymond emphasizes the virtues of that system.
260. 18:44But the general push is to kind of think carefully
261. 18:46about the precepts of law that are necessary and important
262. 18:51to a well-structured and virtuous society.
263. 18:54And so we go about doing that in various and sundry ways,
264. 18:58hosting speakers and conferences and symposia,
265. 19:01producing various forms of writing and other presentation.
266. 19:06We have courses that we teach within the college itself.
267. 19:10So all oriented toward inappropriate,
268. 19:13we might say remedial view of the law which is suffering these days
269. 19:20that is that is amazing thank you so much
270. 19:23up for sharing that and new st. Andrews colleges is that in Moscow Moscow i
271. 19:28know
272. 19:29my school i know it is
273. 19:31up in the Pacific Northwest in the beautiful pollute
274. 19:35with you in the beautiful what you say beautiful
275. 19:38pollute oh okay yes the rolling hills of northern i know yes
276. 19:44yes now for those who may not be aware
277. 19:47of what the common law tradition is which is explained that uh... briefly and
278. 19:51share with that is briefly
279. 19:53sure the common law was developed in england and ended up being our birth
280. 19:58right of sorts here it was transferred across the Atlantic with the colonists
281. 20:02and it's the legal system that
282. 20:04we inherited and of course with that transfer there are also much
283. 20:09some adjustments along the way
284. 20:11but it is the system understood by the founders and so much of the u.s.
285. 20:15Constitution is based on precept and understanding resident in the common law itself, which is
286. 20:21one of the reasons i think it is vital that we kind of return to restore and understand
287. 20:26its historical dimensions so that we better understand our own Constitution and legal system.
288. 20:32Now one of the great detriments in my view that we've suffered in our country is this
289. 20:40really a severance of our constitution from the principles of the Declaration of Independence,
290. 20:46to where we moved away from kind of a Black-stonian ethic and what I would
291. 20:54posit that our, so William Hale would have ascribed toward for a more legal positivistic route. Do you
292. 21:04see that as being a contributing factor to our detrimental jurisprudential standards
293. 21:11currently.
294. 21:12Yes, that's quite right.
295. 21:14There really has been a flip from the prior understanding of the law is something given
296. 21:22in a sense received by us and in resident within the created order.
297. 21:27Instead, it becomes exclusively the mechanisms of those who are in power.
298. 21:32And so rather than honoring pre-existing truths of existence, they are merely opportunities
299. 21:41that is those who are operating the law are taking advantage of opportunities to manipulate
300. 21:45the world in ways of their choosing.
301. 21:49Which unsurprisingly results in people like, I don't know, Mr. Biden presenting his desire
302. 21:55to reform the court with his latest pronouncement in that regard.
303. 22:03Yeah, I'm not sure that that one's going to get off the ground, but it's a kind of posturing
304. 22:13that's revealing his administration's dissatisfaction with some of the developments that have emerged
305. 22:20from the Supreme Court recently.
306. 22:21Sure.
307. 22:22I don't expect it to get off the ground either, but it's really them basically saying the not-so-quiet
308. 22:27part out loud, which has been the desire of not only the current
309. 22:31administration, but really people prior to this current
310. 22:34administration when court decisions don't go the way they want
311. 22:37them to go.
312. 22:40Quite right. Yes. Now this brings me to the crux of the
313. 22:44conversation I really wanted to have with you and I was so moved
314. 22:46by your presentation. Because at the event that I described, I
315. 22:53discussed the fact that marriage is a pre political institution. God
316. 22:57is the designer and ordainer of marriage.
317. 23:01And as a result, he alone defines marriage.
318. 23:04And it frankly doesn't matter to me
319. 23:07what a five-four majority said in 2015
320. 23:10in the Burgofel versus Hodges decision,
321. 23:12that decision is just as abhorrent and aberrant
322. 23:17from its genesis as the Roe versus Wade decision was.
323. 23:21And because it is God's institution,
324. 23:25He alone is its definer.
325. 23:28It's worth fighting for.
326. 23:29And so for far too long,
327. 23:31many Christians have basically seated territory
328. 23:34or simply refused to even consider,
329. 23:36you know, Obergefell is not an unassailable decree
330. 23:39from a monarch.
331. 23:40It's something that should be confronted.
332. 23:43Your presentation described something that is so profound
333. 23:46in my view that a lot of people are assuming things
334. 23:52using Obergefell's adjustification,
335. 23:54but assuming things that are over for the felt did not say
336. 23:59where would you like to begin your car your discussion our discussion now with
337. 24:03with confronting the fact that there are lots of things that are working for
338. 24:06didn't say
339. 24:07and that our society needs to be confronted with the fact that none of that has any
340. 24:11bearing in supreme court president
341. 24:13of your well maybe uh... as a means of getting started here we could
342. 24:18contextualize the discussion and the urgency in it
343. 24:21yes um...
344. 24:22by first discussing a bit of the background of the significance of this
345. 24:25please historically unprecedented in
346. 24:28and monstrous notion of same-sex marriage so-called
347. 24:31and though obviously in the brevity of our discussion today i think the best we
348. 24:34can do is
349. 24:35so to speak put a toe in the pool rather than take a real swim
350. 24:38uh... as there is just so much
351. 24:41could be and i would say should be covered in the subject like this due to
352. 24:45the enormity
353. 24:46uh... that is implicated when our legal cultural authorities renounce
354. 24:50and spite the created order that you were just speaking up of the marital norm the
355. 24:55significance of male and female in all of this of course affects the rule of law
356. 25:00itself or authority or truth transcending the judge or legislator in the first
357. 25:05place so i'd like to say that what is at stake in scandalizing marriage is the
358. 25:12how would we put it elimination of the publicly accepted conceptual
359. 25:17predicates that anchor recognition of the integrity of the family as a real, given, created
360. 25:23institution with its own authority, independence, and special calling that holds and represents
361. 25:30human meaning.
362. 25:31And the law is hijacked to install a lie about human nature and relationality, a radical lie
363. 25:41about the family.
364. 25:43The whole society is subjected to disorder with all the injustices and upheavals that
365. 25:48attend to that.
366. 25:50The dynamic that's now operable is that the very idea of father, of mother, of child,
367. 25:55of family is denied and as a result, imperiled in law.
368. 26:00No social order worthy of the name would allow this sort of thing.
369. 26:05But we've had some specifics that have arisen that might be helpful for fleshing out this
370. 26:09idea.
371. 26:11after Obergefell's ruling on a purported right to a civil marriage license by same-sex couples,
372. 26:18numerous courts as well as executive agencies and certain legislatures have extended out what
373. 26:24they took to be the logic of the court's ruling. And this is what you were alluding to before,
374. 26:30to suggest that the ruling means much more than giving civil marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
375. 26:36It also is they insist something that silently renovated huge swaths of historic state family
376. 26:42law standards.
377. 26:44So for instance, lower courts have ruled, as has the Supreme Court itself, that a state
378. 26:50must convert a child's original birth certificate from a vital record that documents the child's
379. 26:56progenitors, his mother and father, into instead, what should we call it, a parentage status
380. 27:03coupon.
381. 27:04given as a benefit to a same-sex partner who's unrelated to the child.
382. 27:08This deviance means that a birth certificate is gutted of its genealogical purpose, thus redefining
383. 27:15the document to erase any record of the child's father or perhaps mother, replacing that erased
384. 27:21father or mother with the name of an unrelated adult so as to dignify her homosexual relationship.
385. 27:27So this is the way things have been going. Genealogy itself, thereby, is falling victim to the so-called
386. 27:32quality imperative as this birth certificate is redefined and we might say redesigned itself.
387. 27:41I mean, what is on the certificate anymore is changing.
388. 27:43And of course, in the process, the newborn infant is converted into a statement impulated
389. 27:47pawn to be placed with whatever adult that officials deem to merit the government benefit
390. 27:53of child custody.
391. 27:56This same sort of thing is going on when I say this thing.
392. 27:59I mean, like child as a government benefit for distribution.
393. 28:03It works out also in the context of same-sex divorce proceedings when the woman who gives
394. 28:10birth to the child that was conceived by artificial insemination or IDA during the course
395. 28:16of the quote marriage at the time of the divorce proceedings, that mother then wants
396. 28:21to challenge the claim to the child of her former female partner.
397. 28:26Yet courts have consistently ruled in favor of that unrelated woman as being an automatic
398. 28:32parent and thus with the equal legal right to custody or visitation after her divorce
399. 28:37in relationship with this child who's actually the child that's the mother who she's departing
400. 28:43from.
401. 28:44So why is it that the courts are doing this?
402. 28:48Because they explain under the historic state law treating husband wife marriage, the husband
403. 28:53of the birthing mother is rebutably presumed to be the father of her child.
404. 28:59so post-oburgafell equality they say requires a woman who is so-called married to the birthing
405. 29:07mother must also be presumed the father of the child except with the now androgynous
406. 29:12twist of calling her that parent of the child you follow i do follow and it may not have long
407. 29:18said that people who sometimes i would say uh... pigeonholed themselves and saying well
408. 29:27So there's a toxic war on, a war on toxic masculinity, or there's a war in femininity
409. 29:32with the reality is it's a demonic war on the Amigo Day to reduce the complementarily distinct
410. 29:38maleness and femaleness into an amalgamated, indecipherable, undistinguishable human goo.
411. 29:46That is, it is core and effort to put a finger in the eye of the creator of mankind.
412. 29:52Yeah.
413. 29:54Yeah.
414. 29:55That seems to me exactly right.
415. 29:57courts are taking what is a morally and anthropologically-freaded physiological reality of procreation,
416. 30:05a profundity of procreation, and converting it into an exclusively legal status of custodial
417. 30:12function, which means their existence is not, as you said before, a pre-existing truth of
418. 30:17being, but it's only a concoction of political power, which means the family is a state invention
419. 30:24full stop. It's not a separate jurisdiction with a divinely created order of human existence,
420. 30:30as you were mentioning before. And what do you suppose the consequence of that principle might be
421. 30:34when serving as a dogma of constitutional law?
422. 30:39Or tell us. Anyway, you see, this is why I want to insist that we take every available opportunity
423. 30:45to resist the unjustified extensions of Obergefell. So to insist, not just on working toward its
424. 30:53overruling, but in the interim limiting it to the strict boundaries of the actual ruling
425. 30:59itself rather than extending it out in the ways that I'm mentioning.
426. 31:04It's so important that this is done and by and large, this territory has largely been
427. 31:10seeded, you know, and you have judges in certain instances who want to be known for being advocates
428. 31:17for equality, progress, etc., etc., who sometimes take the bait, if you will, to stretch far
429. 31:25beyond what Obergefell says and be the progenitors of the next iteration of what they view as
430. 31:32inevitable consequences of Obergefell.
431. 31:34But that's just not law.
432. 31:37And nor is it true.
433. 31:39And it must be contended again.
434. 31:40Quite right.
435. 31:42Yes, that's right.
436. 31:43You know, there are two different ways that we ought to approach this discussion.
437. 31:47One is the recognition of the cultural annihilation that's implied in an idea, unprecedented historically
438. 31:56of same-sex marriage.
439. 31:58There is no stopping, excuse me, no stopping the outworking of the concepts that are lodged
440. 32:05within that deviant idea.
441. 32:07Okay.
442. 32:08And I want to pick up on that because we're coming to want to on a break, but I'd like to
443. 32:12pick up right there when we get to the other side of the break.
444. 32:15Why it's important to arrest, hinder, and certainly work toward overturning a burger fell, but
445. 32:23we have to stop the encroachment societally from these deviant and aberrant ideas because
446. 32:31it becomes normalized.
447. 32:34Ideas have consequences, bad ideas create casualties, and we are literally dislodging
448. 32:39our entire society from truth and that has inevitable detrimental consequences to sit
449. 32:46that way.
450. 32:47If that is not an understatement, I don't know what an understatement is.
451. 32:50You are listening to the Hamilton Corner.
452. 32:51My guest is Jeff Schaeffer, Director of the Hale Institute at New St. Andrew's College.
453. 32:56Stay with us.
454. 33:03The Stand provides a Christian perspective on current issues that are important to your
455. 33:08family.
456. 33:09Produced by the American Family Association, this monthly magazine is full of articles
457. 33:13stories about people who are making a difference in their community and around the world.
458. 33:18Sign up today and receive a free six-month subscription.
459. 33:21Visit thestand.net or call 1-800-326-4543.
460. 33:27Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrets are available at
461. 33:37efr.net. Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
462. 33:42Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner. Abraham Hamilton III is my name.
463. 33:46my guest is the director of the Hale Institute at New St. Andrews College, Jeff Shafer. And before we
464. 33:50went to the break, Jeff, you were explaining why it's important that we place the proper perspective
465. 34:00on what should be viewed as a restrained ruling in decision from the Supreme Court in the Obergefel
466. 34:06versus Hodge's case of 2015. Right. Yes. And during the break, we were chatting that there is a real
467. 34:13vital distinction between the cultural disaster of accepting the deviance of something called
468. 34:18same-sex marriage on the one hand and on the other the significance of the Supreme Court
469. 34:22ruling like Obergefell in the context of the American constitutional system.
470. 34:27Those are two very different things.
471. 34:29With respect to the latter, there are a number of points that we might register about Obergefell.
472. 34:37I mean a long list, but let's just pick some off here.
473. 34:41First of all, a Supreme Court ruling is not the law of the land, and please let us stop
474. 34:46saying as much.
475. 34:48Article VI of the Constitution tells us what the law of the land is, which includes the Constitution
476. 34:52itself, along with congressional statutes and treaties that are in keeping with it, but
477. 34:56it does not identify Supreme Court decisions as the law of the land.
478. 35:01The historic understanding of court rulings in our Anglo-American common law legal tradition,
479. 35:05which would have been well understood at the time of the drafting of the Constitution, was
480. 35:09judicial rulings were evidence of law, not law itself.
481. 35:13Profound to think of...
482. 35:15Yeah, very important distinction.
483. 35:18Justice Gorsuch wrote a magnificent, concurring opinion in the recent Loper Brite case that
484. 35:23came down a little over a month ago that elaborated this important point.
485. 35:27But indeed, things just like other judicial decisions are often mistaken demonstrably so,
486. 35:33and that's are frequently overruled by the court.
487. 35:36And this has happened hundreds of times at the Supreme Court itself.
488. 35:39Court rulings have no binding authority over the Supreme Court except in so far as it contains
489. 35:44a persuasive influence for the court to treat as the law of the land.
490. 35:50And obviously erroneous and made up decision like Obergefell that barely pretended to be
491. 35:55interpreting the Constitution is an effect to give the Court or five justices on it, the
492. 36:00power to amend the Constitution.
493. 36:03Not only is that not a feature of Article III's judicial power, it's also a violation of Article
494. 36:08five of the Constitution that establishes the mechanism for constitutional amendment.
495. 36:15But more fundamentally or simply, in addressing Obergefell's incompetence as a vehicle to overthrow
496. 36:21the family law systems of the several states, is the limited nature of the Supreme Court's
497. 36:26Article III judicial power to begin with.
498. 36:30Unlike the legislative power, which is not just in the several states, but in the Congress
499. 36:35at the federal level under Article 1, the Supreme Court exercises only judicial authority,
500. 36:41which under Article 3, engages and operates only upon the existence of a case or controversy
501. 36:47that is filed in court, which entails that the court's authority also extends only to
502. 36:53the parties before it, who have been made parties to that case or controversy, either
503. 36:57as plaintiffs or drawing in defendants. This was well recognized throughout our legal history
504. 37:03until we collectively forgot it around the second half of the 20th century.
505. 37:07But earlier it's not so.
506. 37:09You remember Abraham Lincoln's observation that the Supreme Court's reprehensible ruling
507. 37:16in the Dred Scott case.
508. 37:18He registered the idea that while it was binding on the parties before the court in
509. 37:21that case, it did not extend beyond them to other officials or to the nation at large.
510. 37:27Recall, he mentioned in his first inaugural, if the court just by
511. 37:32resolving a dispute between parties, thereby makes policy for the entire nation.
512. 37:39We've kind of lost our entire constitutional system in the process.
513. 37:43In essence, we'd be upending our system into some sort of unrecognizable form, having nothing to do
514. 37:50with the constitutional acknowledgement of separated and distinct departments of authority,
515. 37:54subject matter, distinction, and so on and so forth.
516. 37:56for. So that's kind of a big picture that there's just in the first instance, judicial
517. 38:05rulings themselves are very limited. They do not make policy. The Supreme Court's opinions
518. 38:11are not pieces of legislation. They shouldn't be reviewed as if they were.
519. 38:18By the way, I guess I should say, in view of the fact that we've seen something of a
520. 38:24public shift on the authority of the Supreme Court, we really do now have a Supreme Court
521. 38:30majority that is much more sophisticated on these kinds of issues and willing to talk
522. 38:35about them. There were a number of cases that came down from the court this last term in
523. 38:40June in which the justices showed a rather punctilious attention to the nature and limits
524. 38:47of judicial authority. So they're emphasizing the circumscribed reach of constitutional grants
525. 38:55of authority, of the court to issue injunctions, whether the court will rule on legal claims
526. 39:01that don't implicate a sufficient harm to the claimant, whether the court's case law
527. 39:06can overcome Supreme authority, the Constitution itself and so on and on. So these questions
528. 39:10about judicial authority in the Supreme Court itself are really getting a lot more attention
529. 39:15from
530. 39:16certain justice is in particular but my suspicion is that there is a majority
531. 39:21on the court now that really is sensitive to the reach of its own
532. 39:25decisions
533. 39:26and would be open to arguments about the limitations of cases like obama felt
534. 39:30yeah i agree with you and it's it's
535. 39:33the judicial acknowledgement that we are a nation constitutionally that we have
536. 39:37separate powers but not co-equal branches
537. 39:40of government
538. 39:41We don't have the same role nor domestic potency in terms of determining national policy.
539. 39:49And it's a proper constitutional balance, which is necessary in order to instruct the
540. 39:54nation as to how we as the governed who delegate to our elected representatives via our consent
541. 40:02a proper conforming to constitutional norms.
542. 40:06Yes.
543. 40:08Well put.
544. 40:11You know, there's some really fascinating scholarship that's emerging on these kinds of
545. 40:16questions.
546. 40:17I think a prominent figure here is Jonathan Mitchell, who was the driving force, the author
547. 40:24behind Texas, the SBA statute.
548. 40:28But he's written a fascinating piece in explaining that Supreme Court justices cannot strike down
549. 40:34or invalidate any laws.
550. 40:37can only enjoy government officials who are made parties to the case requiring they
551. 40:43not enforce the laws that the court deems unconstitutional. That is to say the laws themselves
552. 40:48are not affected. It's just the prerogatives of the officials who are defendants in the
553. 40:52case. And it's for that reason that we need to make clear that Obergefell did exactly nothing
554. 40:58to wipe state marriage laws off the books. Should I say that again?
555. 41:03s p one would have a problem all the way in the back
556. 41:07yeah in my state of residence which is i don't like yours in the city there is
557. 41:12no same-sex marriage recognized in law
558. 41:15the relevant provisions of the state constitution statutes
559. 41:18make plane that marriage is a union of man and woman
560. 41:22and the in-app vote of five justices in the uber-fell case
561. 41:25which by the way did not involve i don't know i should add
562. 41:29did not could not do anything to i don't know marriage law
563. 41:33It's not even clear what, or it's operable language in the case merely stated that state
564. 41:39laws are invalid to the extent they exclude same-sex couples from civil marriage.
565. 41:46But that's a ruling that has been universally ignored, as it means that husband-wife marriage
566. 41:51laws are invalid.
567. 41:52Though precisely those laws have been in nonstop operation in states across the nation since
568. 41:57Obergefell is announced.
569. 42:00But in all events, was Idaho, was Mississippi, were they parties to this case?
570. 42:03that they present arguments as to the nature and the virtues of their family law systems,
571. 42:09no and no.
572. 42:12The Supreme Court's ruling only was addressed to the parties in that case and it did nothing
573. 42:17to the laws of the states implicated.
574. 42:20It only issued a kind of injunction against officials from enforcing laws in a particular
575. 42:27way.
576. 42:28That's a longer conversation, but I just wanted to flag it as one that's of moment
577. 42:33for the discussion that we're having.
578. 42:35Yeah.
579. 42:36So what would you submit needs to be done in order to advance?
580. 42:43I would say probably the two-pronged approach first,
581. 42:47limiting the metastasizing application
582. 42:51of or what some might view as inevitable consequences
583. 42:55of a burgafell, what would need to be done in order
584. 42:57to accomplish that?
585. 42:59What we need to see is states with a measure of backbone
586. 43:03refusing to do anything beyond
587. 43:07uh... i mean i i i think it would be reasonable for states to simply say
588. 43:11we're not going to abide by the decision in the first place because we were not
589. 43:14parties to that case
590. 43:15now of course that's going to invite litigation that will have to be
591. 43:19thought out and and so on and obviously supreme court precedent is going to have
592. 43:23substantial influence on the outcome that obtained
593. 43:27in that subsequent you know line of litigation
594. 43:30So let's set aside the question of Obergefell's licensing ruling and just move over to the
595. 43:35questions of whether states should hold on to its laws that say on our birth certificate
596. 43:43templates there is mother and father and there's nothing else.
597. 43:47There's no changes to be had there.
598. 43:50No Supreme Court decision has addressed whether the law in Mississippi or the law in Idaho
599. 43:56on that question is valid or invalid.
600. 43:59The question about child custody, whether the adoption laws continue to be operational
601. 44:04in our states rather than being overborn by same-sex partners who want to have automatic
602. 44:10access to his or her partner's child.
603. 44:13You follow me?
604. 44:14All of these kinds of natural family dimensions that are just getting steamrolled in a number
605. 44:20of contexts.
606. 44:22I think states and attorneys general for states really need to be refusing to do anything or
607. 44:28permit an incursion into state law in any way
608. 44:31that is arguably an extension of a burger felt but in fact was never ruled
609. 44:36upon in that case
610. 44:38now i i know what we're talking about the technical legal realities uh... but
611. 44:43what why do you surmised that the steamrolling
612. 44:46of the basically the family structure at the state level is is taking place what
613. 44:50why do you think that's happening
614. 44:52i i don't know i mean i find the whole thing astonishing
615. 44:56I mean, states typically are so jealous of their prerogatives in their historic law.
616. 45:01So, if this were a matter of, let's say, water rights or a boundary dispute between states,
617. 45:07something along these lines, you know perfectly well that your attorney general's office.
618. 45:12Across the country, we'd see the same thing, this fervent resistance to any kind of additional
619. 45:17expansion of a principle that's unlike.
620. 45:21But for some reason, we have all just laying down flat before this kind of juggernaut as
621. 45:28if it's irresistible.
622. 45:30And so no resistance has been put up to it.
623. 45:32Why that is the case?
624. 45:33I have no idea.
625. 45:35But what makes, we might say, aggravates that concern is there are so many bases upon which
626. 45:42to resist.
627. 45:45I'm certain not many people have even considered it,
628. 45:48and it very well could be
629. 45:51because of the political nature of it.
630. 45:55What Attorney General wants to be found,
631. 45:57sticking their neck out to oppose the cultural juggernaut
632. 46:01that is sexual deviancy and perversion.
633. 46:06The sexual revolution is one of the most profound,
634. 46:09perhaps the most profound sort of revolution
635. 46:12in human history.
636. 46:14It's imperative is visible all around us.
637. 46:18Obviously, there's penalties that are,
638. 46:21you just alluded to this, penalties that would be extended
639. 46:24to anyone who resists its ministrations.
640. 46:27So yes, it would really take a sturdy state,
641. 46:33group of officials and litigators to stand up to this
642. 46:38in the way that I'm suggesting.
643. 46:39But it's only civilization that's at stake.
644. 46:42So maybe we could go ahead and drum up some integrity within our ranks and do something
645. 46:47about this.
646. 46:48Yeah.
647. 46:49And I just want to invite you just to expound that a little bit.
648. 46:51It's only civilization that's a state.
649. 46:53And it is something that provoked a chuckle from me because of how true and obviously true.
650. 47:00It is.
651. 47:01Would you just take a few moments and articulate why you can say with such conviction that
652. 47:05it's only civilization that's a state?
653. 47:08Well, you know, all of life, both explicit and implicit,
654. 47:13I'm talking both on the cultural side of things
655. 47:16as well as the legal side of things,
656. 47:18is operational kind of on the basis of an understanding
657. 47:24of what the human being is.
658. 47:27So throughout history, we have acknowledged that male
659. 47:30and female are significant given features of human life.
660. 47:36And they're coming together in marriages,
661. 47:38basis of civilization, basis of the social order. This is how we have children emerging into the world.
662. 47:44And so there's a kind of reality and significance to us as persons that's tethered to our being male,
663. 47:52being female, being familial. And when I say, you know, the law itself is built on this,
664. 48:00there's all kinds of presumptions that go back through the ages in which the state
665. 48:05defers to the reality of the family. It has not treated it as some sort of utilitarian concoction.
666. 48:13It has instead kind of recognized it as being a truth of existence. And now we are in this
667. 48:18revolutionary overthrow getting away with doing off with that idea and that truth, I guess I should
668. 48:27say. And in the process of doing so, one of the things that's happening to the law is it is reconceiving
669. 48:33itself as being beholden to nothing outside of the wishes of those in the corridors of
670. 48:40power.
671. 48:41The law no longer is understanding itself as submitting to a pre-existing order of truth.
672. 48:47It is instead the exercise of coercion.
673. 48:50And that's why it's so important that those persons who like particular ways of life would
674. 48:56get their hands on the levers of power, so as to be able to manipulate things.
675. 49:01This is a conception of law that's new on the scene, and I think it's ultimately very destructive.
676. 49:08The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American
677. 49:13Family Association or American Family Radio.