Guest Host, Jenna Ellis, is joined by her mother, Valerie Ellis, to discuss Biblical Counseling

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:07This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:29and now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:31Good evening and welcome to the Hamilton Corner.
12. 0:36I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham Hamilton the third this evening.
13. 0:40Such a privilege always to join you at opportunities where he needs a guest host.
14. 0:46It's great to wrap up the evening instead of my usual spot which is the first live show
15. 0:53of the morning on AFR.
16. 0:54It's great to kind of bookend this evening.
17. 0:59I just have to say that Abe is such a wonderful host and has become a very dear friend, everyone
18. 1:04at American Family Radio, American Family Association.
19. 1:07I have so appreciated their ministry, Christian fellowship and friendship and it is such a blessing
20. 1:14to be part of this ministry.
21. 1:16So for those who maybe don't listen in the morning, typically my show Jenna Ellis in the
22. 1:21morning, we cover news of the day, that's politics, culture, theology and everything to
23. 1:28do with the three institutions that God has ordained, the church government, the family
24. 1:34government and the civil government.
25. 1:36And most often a lot of the headlines fall into the civil government realm and what God
26. 1:43has given in terms of legitimate specific limited authority to the civil government so
27. 1:49that we can promote good and restrain evil in civil society.
28. 1:55And we're going to start with that and then kind of work our way through this program
29. 1:59into some aspects of church and family as well with a very special guest coming up in the next
30. 2:07segment.
31. 2:08But first I want to start with the civil government and of course we are in the midst
32. 2:13of primary season and this is the opportunity here in America to select and prefer our leaders.
33. 2:21And as our founders recognized when we select and prefer Christians, then we live in a system
34. 2:27of government where our leaders wield the powers of government, benevolent, benevolently,
35. 2:34if I can say that word on this evening.
36. 2:36And I do have coffee, by the way, because I have coffee in the mornings too.
37. 2:40But this civil government will wield that benevolently and will do that in a way that
38. 2:45is in accordance with the principles of the biblical worldview.
39. 2:51By contrast, if we select and prefer evil leaders, then we'll see what happened to the
40. 2:58nation of Israel in the Old Testament, that when they had wicked kings and wicked rulers,
41. 3:02the people groaned and suffered under the weight of that pain.
42. 3:08Because even in a constitutional republic like we still have in the United States, our government
43. 3:14leaders on both the state and federal level have a lot that they can permit or prohibit
44. 3:22and a lot that will necessarily impact our daily lives and will necessarily impact the
45. 3:30church and the family governments.
46. 3:33And so civil government was designed by God and we see that in scripture that he established
47. 3:39the nations and the boundaries of the nations.
48. 3:41And he established a civil government
49. 3:44as a way to enforce morality and his truth in society.
50. 3:51Now, this isn't forcing salvation,
51. 3:53it's not forcing what the church provides,
52. 3:56which is a substantive and deep relationship
53. 4:01with the Lord and understanding of theology,
54. 4:03a teaching of scripture, membership in a local church.
55. 4:07That's not what the civil government provides.
56. 4:09And so when Thomas Jefferson wrote that letter to the Danbury Baptist and talking about a separation of church and state,
57. 4:17it wasn't suggesting that the state is in any way secular or devoid of moral principles.
58. 4:24It was simply recognizing that the state is a different jurisdiction.
59. 4:28It's a different institution.
60. 4:29The state does not compel you or I to believe in the Lord as our Savior.
61. 4:34doesn't compel us to go to church, doesn't compel us on how we need to choose to raise
62. 4:40our kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
63. 4:43It doesn't prescribe parenting rules of your household, but the state does prescribe and
64. 4:49also prohibit certain activities in our community, our civil society.
65. 4:55So it's a morality and a code of conduct that is enforced upon the whole of the community
66. 5:01for the public good, and ultimately good, is determined by God himself.
67. 5:08It's the measurable difference between right and wrong, good and evil.
68. 5:12And that is the person of Jesus Christ, truth, and the reality of which God has presented
69. 5:18us to has that moral code embedded in the fabric of our reality.
70. 5:25And as C.S. Lewis put it, we can discover truth and then we can apply it to not only our daily
71. 5:34lives but to our systems of government and those institutions that God has ordained.
72. 5:40And so when we apply that bigger principle to our American system of government, we have
73. 5:48to ask and answer the question, are we doing that well in society currently?
74. 5:53Well, I think that perhaps my home state, the free state of Florida has been doing that well
75. 5:58compared to perhaps California or New York or some of the blue states.
76. 6:04Some of the other lesser blue states or lesser red states are doing that more or less well.
77. 6:10But the standard should always be whether or not we are abiding by the legitimate principles
78. 6:17of morality that God himself has given to us. That's our standard. It's not about Republican
79. 6:22versus Democrat, it's not about Trump versus some other candidate, it's not about a personality
80. 6:29or loyalty, it's always about principle. And that used to be understood by conservatives
81. 6:36as the thing that we are conserving. We are conserving truth and we are continuing as our
82. 6:42founders provided to build a moral and upright society. And so as we move forward with new
83. 6:49advances in technology we're having to confront. What do we do with artificial
84. 6:54intelligence? There's an incredible set of moral questions that we need to apply
85. 6:59to that technology, to its regulation, to its use in civil society, in in not
86. 7:06only state-funded institutions like public schools, but also how the the
87. 7:11church may or may not utilize that. There was even just recently a
88. 7:15controversy over plagiarism of pastors who are using AI to write their sermons.
89. 7:21Is that ethical?
90. 7:22I don't think that it is, right?
91. 7:24And how do we deal with that in the various institutions between civil government versus
92. 7:31the church government?
93. 7:32Obviously those are two different answers in terms of whose authority we are compelling
94. 7:39and the principles that we're providing.
95. 7:42civil government regulation ultimately in our constitutional republic comes down to
96. 7:46we the people we can
97. 7:48uh... vote
98. 7:49our leaders out and that's why we have primaries that's why we have general
99. 7:52elections uh... in church government hopefully
100. 7:55everyone is uh... responsible and accountable to
101. 7:59their local body to a board of elders even the pastor is responsible to a
102. 8:03board of elders uh... so that we have and can enforce church discipline
103. 8:07but when we're talking about
104. 8:08you know, the civil government.
105. 8:10And as we move along our timeline in the world,
106. 8:14waiting for the return of Christ,
107. 8:15we have to ask and answer these questions
108. 8:18of basic civil morality.
109. 8:21And this isn't just about the obvious questions
110. 8:25like pro-life or whether men can become women.
111. 8:29I mean, those are obviously moral questions.
112. 8:33But everything that the government does
113. 8:35and what it suggests as good and permissible in society
114. 8:40versus what it prohibits and criminalizes in society,
115. 8:43that's a moral commentary.
116. 8:46That the state is enforcing a view of moral truth.
117. 8:51And so what we are obligated to do as citizens
118. 8:55that have the not only responsibility,
119. 8:58but the privilege of selecting and preferring our leaders,
120. 9:02of voting on issues and ballot issues and amendments
121. 9:06and those kinds of things is to have an objective standard
122. 9:09and enforce that standard so that the moral premise
123. 9:13in our government system is always the biblical worldview
124. 9:18and it's always a truthful view of society.
125. 9:20It's not a false one.
126. 9:22It's not a secular one.
127. 9:24It is not one that is built on one personality
128. 9:28or one party's specific platform
129. 9:30that may not be in conformance to the word of God.
130. 9:32That's what it means to be a Christian society.
131. 9:36That's what it means to have a biblical government.
132. 9:40It's not about a theocracy where a church
133. 9:42controls the government, the civil government.
134. 9:45It's about the civil government abiding by truth.
135. 9:48And so we had a primary here in the Free State of Florida
136. 9:51last night and the always the interesting question
137. 9:56about a primary, especially when you're talking
138. 9:58just about selecting the best candidate among Republicans
139. 10:03or among Democrats, you always have to look at who is running
140. 10:09and vote based on the issues and the values.
141. 10:13And then look at what is going on in that state and who best,
142. 10:19we are going to vest the responsibility and the powers
143. 10:23of government too.
144. 10:25And this is the problem that I personally have with Byron Donald's, who is now the Republican
145. 10:31nominee for governor. Interestingly, he did not attain more than 50% of the vote in the primary.
146. 10:38I think that signals some potential problems as he runs now in the general election against
147. 10:45a Democrat who is very leftist, you know, pro-transing kids, I mean, pro-all of the leftist things.
148. 10:52So by contrast does Byron subscribe to more values that I do than the Democrat?
149. 10:57Yes, however, that doesn't make necessarily him the best candidate.
150. 11:04And this is where I think that we are doing primaries wrong and have been doing primaries
151. 11:09wrong overall in terms of our philosophy coming to the ballot for a while, but especially during
152. 11:18the Trump era where the Trump endorsement and the coronation by the establishment GOP
153. 11:25is selecting the winners basically for us.
154. 11:29Because we've been told in Florida for a long time that the primaries over everybody as a
155. 11:33five months ago, coalesce around Byron, he has the most money, he has the Trump endorsement,
156. 11:38he's going to win and basically there's nothing that you can do about it.
157. 11:41And that did not sit well with a lot of Floridians, it's still not.
158. 11:45for very good reason because Governor DeSantis, and this is his opinion, not even just mine,
159. 11:51I happen to agree with him, but he has said repeatedly throughout the primary that Byron
160. 11:56wasn't part of the significant wins that the Free State of Florida accomplished. Things
161. 12:01like the lack of the COVID mandates, things like the heartbeat bill, a lot of the things
162. 12:08that the state legislature pushed through in DeSantis's second term that he said, actually
163. 12:14in my program in the morning was possibly the best Republican term in the history of the
164. 12:20Republican party in terms of advancing conservative values.
165. 12:24And when you have someone whose policy priorities don't align with conservatism, then you have
166. 12:30to stop and ask the question, then why are we nominating that person to be the nominee
167. 12:36of what should be the conservative party?
168. 12:39We need to question that.
169. 12:41And so it's frustrating once we get to the general election that it's only at that point
170. 12:47that so many Christians end up asking the question, well, wait a minute, isn't there a
171. 12:52better candidate?
172. 12:54That's what the primaries are for.
173. 12:56And this is why it's very difficult in our system to break away from this kind of two-party
174. 13:02uni-party kind of system where we do have the GOP with all of its money and the endorsement
175. 13:10power and strength of the Trump endorsement really can select all of these people.
176. 13:15So what is the solution?
177. 13:17Well we need to get more involved in the primary.
178. 13:20We need to know that as good citizens we need to be engaged in civil government, hold them
179. 13:25accountable and responsible to that objective standard of truth.
180. 13:30And we need to always select the best candidates, not because the polls tell us that someone
181. 13:35is inevitable or because the endorsement says that they've been coordinated.
182. 13:39actually do the research upfront and vote for the best candidate that is actually the conservative
183. 13:46standard bearer. And we need to do that well in advance of the general election. And I hope that
184. 13:52we will do that well in advance of the 2028 presidential election as well because politics of
185. 13:59course can get incredibly divisive, it can get incredibly personal. But we need to remember
186. 14:06as Christians, that it's not about any of that. It's about selecting and preferring our leaders
187. 14:12who will best create policy and will best enforce the law that reflects a biblical standard
188. 14:19of objective truth. And that's the whole reason that we have the opportunity and the privilege
189. 14:24as Americans to select and prefer our leaders. So we need to be engaged. We need to be even
190. 14:30more involved in the civil government also our church and our family systems of government as well.
191. 14:36So I'm Jenna Ellis, I'm filling in for Abe Hamilton this evening. You're listening to the Hamilton Corner
192. 14:42and we will be right back with more. A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker. What should a pro-life
193. 15:06church look like? It's a church that will prayerfully consider encouraging members to volunteer
194. 15:12at local pregnancy centers and to volunteer for other pro-life ministries.
195. 15:17It's a church that would prayerfully consider supporting a baby closed closet with diapers,
196. 15:22clothes, wipes, and other needed items. It's a church that will prayerfully consider becoming
197. 15:28a sanctuary church. They will help moms who find themselves expecting a baby at a difficult time.
198. 15:34They will come alongside a mother who feels all alone and walk with her through her
199. 15:38time of pregnancy and beyond. It's a church that will learn about important
200. 15:43pro-life outreach ministers that are doing vital work to in legalized abortion in
201. 15:47different ways. Am I really seeking to honor the Lord in doing what he would have
202. 15:51me to do as an individual disciple of Christ to help stand for life?
203. 15:57Shining light into the darkness. This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
204. 16:11Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner. I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham
205. 16:16Hamilton III this evening and we've been talking about the three spheres of
206. 16:20government that God has ordained the civil government, the church government, and the
207. 16:25family government and our roles and responsibilities as human beings made in
208. 16:30his image and that we understand our responsibilities as Christians to be part
209. 16:37of each of those institutions and our responsibilities and duties as good
210. 16:43citizens in civil society and the civil government. And then we should be, if we are Christians
211. 16:49and following the Lord, we should be members of a local church. And we should also take
212. 16:54seriously being members of our family as well. And the roles and the responsibilities that
213. 17:01come with being parents, grandparents, even sons and daughters and grandchildren. There
214. 17:07are responsibilities and service that we have to the Lord.
215. 17:11And, you know, overall one of the big issues that comes up as well is, especially within
216. 17:19the context of the church, but especially within the context of the family, is an understanding
217. 17:26of human conflict and also personal suffering, an understanding of human emotions.
218. 17:34And so to talk more about this, I actually want to welcome in my mom, Valerie Ellis, and
219. 17:39for regular listeners of Jenna Ellis in the morning, she has been a frequent guest to talk
220. 17:44about the biblical worldview of a lot of different topics, but particularly the difference
221. 17:50between psychological counseling and biblical counseling, which is necessary for our understanding
222. 17:59of what the Bible teaches about how individuals deal with conflict, deal with our own fallen
223. 18:07condition, and some of that responsibility that we have to ensure that we are living our
224. 18:15lives according to the biblical worldview.
225. 18:17So my mom, Valerie Ellis, is here with us and welcome to the Hamilton Corner, but hosted
226. 18:25by me this evening, mom.
227. 18:26Yeah, good to be here Jenna.
228. 18:29Absolutely.
229. 18:30And so you know you've talked about this on my morning show, but for those maybe who are
230. 18:35regular listeners of the Hamilton Corner haven't really understood the distinction I heard you,
231. 18:42describe the distinction between psychological counseling and biblical counseling.
232. 18:46So frame that out for us.
233. 18:49Sure.
234. 18:50Let's first start with saying that psychological counseling includes Christian psychological
235. 18:59counseling.
236. 19:00Some people think as long as you're a Christian doing psychological counseling, you must be
237. 19:05doing biblical counseling, but that is not true.
238. 19:08So the distinctive are psychological counseling, even if it's secular or Christian, opposite
239. 19:17of that is biblical counseling.
240. 19:19So just a couple of the main categories then would be what is the training?
241. 19:26So a psychological counseling, psychological counseling training would be you go to a secular
242. 19:36or Christian university and you are trained in the theories of men on what is wrong with
243. 19:45people and how can we help them?
244. 19:48Why do people get angry?
245. 19:49Why do people get depressed?
246. 19:50Why are people anxious?
247. 19:52Why do people not get along?
248. 19:54Why are there conflicts between parents and children
249. 19:57and spouses and all of that that people come to counseling for?
250. 20:02Why?
251. 20:03And there are theories that all of the theories
252. 20:08come from atheist men.
253. 20:10And even if you're in a Christian university,
254. 20:13you're getting a degree in psychology,
255. 20:16you study those theories.
256. 20:18A biblical counselor is trained in what the Bible says
257. 20:22about those questions.
258. 20:24Why are people angry?
259. 20:25Why are people anxious?
260. 20:26Why do people get depressed, et cetera?
261. 20:28So the training is absolutely different.
262. 20:32And then you get a, from the state, the secular state,
263. 20:38you get a license to help people with those problems
264. 20:42if you are in psychological counseling.
265. 20:44A biblical counselor would never be licensed by the state
266. 20:48because they don't license what we teach in counseling.
267. 20:53So that's one major difference.
268. 20:54And the other is another one is the goals of counseling.
269. 20:58Or psychological counseling, the goal is just
270. 21:01to have relief from the suffering,
271. 21:03to have different emotions,
272. 21:05to have whatever the counseling's goal is.
273. 21:11What is your goal if you want me to help you get a divorce
274. 21:14without having any problems then,
275. 21:17I'll help you out if you want me to help you be okay with being gay or lesbian or whatever
276. 21:24the goal of the person who's seeking counsel is as a licensed psychologist.
277. 21:29I have to help them reach their goal.
278. 21:32That is not the goal of a biblical counselor.
279. 21:34A biblical counselor's goal is to help that person, a Christian, live out his faith in
280. 21:42the midst of the situation that he is in in the moment.
281. 21:45So it's how to live a life pleasing to the Lord if I'm in a difficult marriage.
282. 21:50If I have a rebellious child, if I'm having financial difficulties, whatever the problem
283. 21:56is, how do I live out my faith in that situation?
284. 22:00And so those are two big differences.
285. 22:04And then there's another difference is how we view suffering.
286. 22:09The world, which is the whole thing of psychological realm,
287. 22:15is the world's ideas about things.
288. 22:17How does the world view suffering?
289. 22:19It's random, there's no God behind anything,
290. 22:22there's no purpose to it.
291. 22:23And so they can't explain it,
292. 22:26they can't give any comfort in it
293. 22:28about what it is all about.
294. 22:31A biblical counselor understands that suffering
295. 22:34comes from sin, either from ourselves.
296. 22:37Sometimes we bring on our own suffering through our own choices,
297. 22:40but also other people in the world can,
298. 22:44their choices can affect me and I can be suffering
299. 22:47because of somebody else's choice.
300. 22:50And there's a purpose for it though,
301. 22:51because we know God is sovereign,
302. 22:53He is overall and He overrules all.
303. 22:56If a difficulty has come to us,
304. 22:58it's because He wants us to honor Him and glorify Him
305. 23:01in the midst of that suffering.
306. 23:03And also to be sanctified in our own faith,
307. 23:05to grow in our knowledge of him and in our trust in him.
308. 23:09There's just a lot in suffering
309. 23:12that the Bible teaches us that the world has no idea about
310. 23:15that would help us in the midst of our suffering.
311. 23:18And then just the fourth one,
312. 23:21there's lots of differences,
313. 23:21but these are fourth ones.
314. 23:22The fourth one is how we think about emotions.
315. 23:26Because the secular realm of psychology,
316. 23:31they don't take into, again,
317. 23:34They're counseling is, how do I help this person without God?
318. 23:39So they don't put God into the midst of anything.
319. 23:42So you're having very strong, intense, negative emotions.
320. 23:48Their theories will say it's coming from your body.
321. 23:54Somehow it's a bodily problem.
322. 23:56For example, depression is the chemicals in your brain are out of balance.
323. 24:02That has never been proven at all.
324. 24:04It's just a theory and they treat it as if that's for sure that's,
325. 24:07but a lot of people are sad because they should be sad.
326. 24:11There are really sad things going on in their lives.
327. 24:14We should say, oh, you must have something wrong with you.
328. 24:16You have a mental health problem here,
329. 24:18take a drug to help you.
330. 24:20We say, you know what, sadness is appropriate in the situation that you're in.
331. 24:26It makes sense. You're grieving.
332. 24:27You're grieving because you have lost something, you've lost a job.
333. 24:30Your child has cut you off, your spouse has just filed for divorce.
334. 24:34Of course, you would be sad.
335. 24:36And it's not a function of your body.
336. 24:39This is a function of what is actually going on in the human response to something that's really sad.
337. 24:45It all comes down to some people having their emotions because they have faulty thinking.
338. 24:51They're not thinking biblically, so we help them think better and then their emotions stabilize.
339. 24:55So that's just a basic old way, 30,000 foot overview of some of those main differences.
340. 25:01Yeah, and it's such an important distinction, and I would conceptualize it as saying that
341. 25:10a psychological counseling doesn't offer hope because it is based on an individual person's
342. 25:17goals and essentially selfishness where biblical counseling offers hope because of the truth
343. 25:24of the Gospel of Christ and says even in the midst of our fallen condition, redemption and
344. 25:29restoration is possible through the finished work of Christ and we can know how we can live
345. 25:34accordingly. And so there are answers and there is hope. It's not just, well, you know, chase the
346. 25:42feeling of not being sad anymore and try to be happy all the time, which we all know just from
347. 25:49our own human experience is completely not possible.
348. 25:52And so why is it that so many churches right now in America have completely lost this distinction
349. 26:03between psychological counseling and biblical theological training and counseling according
350. 26:10to the Word of God?
351. 26:11And they've essentially farmed this out and so many pastors say, well, I don't know, you
352. 26:15I only can preach what I say on Sundays, but if you want any biblical counseling, go see
353. 26:21a therapist.
354. 26:25It really is a phenomenon for pastors to be farming their counseling out in recent decades,
355. 26:32because for the whole history of the church, pastors knew that part of their calling is
356. 26:37to help individual people learn to live out their faith in the midst of their situation.
357. 26:43So this is something new, a couple of reasons, big reasons, and main reasons.
358. 26:48Number one, the seminaries that our pastors are going to have also bought into the lives
359. 26:56of the psychological world.
360. 26:59So they're trained in counseling in the same psychological theories that I was just speaking
361. 27:03of.
362. 27:04That's one problem, but the second problem, a second problem is also that pastors, there's
363. 27:10a lot of pastors who don't even go to seminary.
364. 27:12don't know the faith themselves. They do not have a robust theology of who God's people are,
365. 27:22what He has done for us, what about suffering, what about pain and sorrow in this world, how can
366. 27:29I help people? Pastors don't know it. I call them, you know, the CEOs of the big circus that they're
367. 27:35running, they have no idea how to help their people. So they farm their people out and usually
368. 27:42and hopefully to a Christian psychologist licensed therapist, so to speak, they themselves do
369. 27:48not know the difference between Christian counseling and biblical counseling.
370. 27:53So they're just clueless about that.
371. 27:56And then the third reason is because we live in such a litigious society and the mental
372. 28:03health industry.
373. 28:05There's a lot of legal problems that you can get into.
374. 28:12If somebody in your church comes to you as a pastor and says, I'm depressed, pastors are
375. 28:19afraid to deal with that because if there could be legal ramifications later on, if that person
376. 28:27tries to harm themselves or harm somebody else, they could be.
377. 28:33You weren't qualified to help them.
378. 28:36You should have sent them to a licensed person who is qualified to deal with this mental health
379. 28:40problem, so to speak.
380. 28:41So, Pastor Shai away from it.
381. 28:43It's really sad that those people don't get the help and the hope that they actually need
382. 28:49because of psychological industry is so huge right now.
383. 28:54Yeah, and there's certainly a push by society to go to the so-called experts.
384. 29:01is what I've said for a while when we see all of these so-called experts who are going
385. 29:09in testifying in front of Senate committees and they can't answer the question, what is
386. 29:14a woman? Because our Supreme Court Justice nominee Katanji Jackson during her confirmation
387. 29:21hearings said that she couldn't answer that because she's not a biologist. Well, any human
388. 29:26being who's rational and is, you know, even two years old can say, I know the difference
389. 29:31between a boy and a girl.
390. 29:33But what they're doing is purposefully setting up these so-called experts, then that the only
391. 29:40the experts can dictate what reality is and what we should do about it.
392. 29:44And it's incredibly wrong.
393. 29:45And Christian pastors should not subscribe into that and they shouldn't shy away from
394. 29:50their true ministry.
395. 29:52And so in biblical counseling, how have biblical counselors taken that fear and basically put
396. 30:04that aside and said, well, we are obligated to do ministry anyway, and we've only got
397. 30:08about two minutes before the break here.
398. 30:10Well, this is where biblical counselors, we have to have a waver in consent form basically
399. 30:18to cover ourselves legally and explain that we are not doing psychological counseling.
400. 30:24We are, it used to be called back in the olden days process for the 1850s pastoral counseling.
401. 30:31We are teaching this person about the Christian faith.
402. 30:35We are not saying that we are going into anything medical or anything legal.
403. 30:41Just to cover ourselves and make it very clear, we are staying in our own lane.
404. 30:45We are teaching the word of God and the truths of the Christian faith or this person to implement
405. 30:53in their lives to help them in their situation.
406. 30:58So that's the thing.
407. 30:59The whole way that Christians look at this is they have forgotten the fact that only God
408. 31:09can tell us the truth about the spiritual realm.
409. 31:12no human being has any insight at all into the spiritual realm.
410. 31:18And so we believe that these soul problems,
411. 31:23as we call them, they are problems of the soul,
412. 31:26which is spiritual.
413. 31:28They are not brain problems.
414. 31:29They are not physical problems,
415. 31:31even though there's bodily problems
416. 31:33that can bodily misfunctions or something.
417. 31:36You can have both thyroid,
418. 31:37you can have low blood pressure,
419. 31:39you can have hormonal problems.
420. 31:41There's lots of things that go wrong in the body
421. 31:45that can affect your spiritual life.
422. 31:48But we say, okay, that's the area of the medical doctor.
423. 31:53We are going to teach you how to live out your faith.
424. 31:56And no human being can see into the spiritual realm.
425. 31:59God had to give us revelation for the spiritual realm.
426. 32:04So we say, this comes from the source himself God created us.
427. 32:08He created our souls.
428. 32:09He created the spiritual realm.
429. 32:11He created our mind and he can tell us how to have health.
430. 32:17If you, if we want to use that word for it in the spiritual realm.
431. 32:21And I'll tell people, nobody knows how much of your problem
432. 32:23may be a physical problem going on versus your spiritual life.
433. 32:28But let's get your spiritual life going really strong
434. 32:34and you have a, you know, get that going, growing in the Lord
435. 32:38and trusting in him and moving on with him
436. 32:41and becoming more sanctified and everything,
437. 32:44then we'll see whatever else is left over.
438. 32:47I have some.
439. 32:47We've got to take a break here,
440. 32:49but I'm here with my mom, Valerie Ellis,
441. 32:52who's a biblical counselor.
442. 32:53I'm Jenna Ellis.
443. 32:54We'll be right back with more.
444. 33:00The feature-length documentary, Culture Warrior,
445. 33:03Don Wildman in the Battle for Decency,
446. 33:05chronicles the life and ministry of Don Wildman.
447. 33:08It takes you through the founding
448. 33:10of the National Federation for Decency.
449. 33:12What has become AFA?
450. 33:14It's a call to stand firm for righteousness and shows how that resolve can make a huge
451. 33:19difference in our world.
452. 33:21If we lose this cultural war, we're going to have a hedonistic humanistic society.
453. 33:26Find out more and watch at CultureWarrior.movie.
454. 33:30American Family Radio is now available on iOS and Apple TV apps.
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456. 33:39Here's where both of you or each of you got it right and wrong according to scripture.
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458. 33:44And you can download these apps free from your favorite app store.
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460. 33:51AFR, available on iOS and Apple TV.
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462. 34:00Discerning truth from deception.
463. 34:03This is David Wheaton, host of the Christian worldview.
464. 34:06If Satan or those he influences can persuade someone to believe a lie, that is a victory
465. 34:12for him.
466. 34:13The COVID era was a sad example of this.
467. 34:15For three years, our country was taken over by falsehoods.
468. 34:19Six-foot social distancing and masking were not true science, and the vaccine didn't protect
469. 34:25people from getting or spreading the virus.
470. 34:28Whether it's COVID or the next conspiracy theory, the Bible calls Christians to examine
471. 34:33Everything carefully hold fast to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil.
472. 34:39Here are most recent programs on this topic with author and radio host Steve Dase at TheChristianWorldView.org
473. 34:45and then tuning this weekend as Christian Apologist Frank Turic joins us to talk about
474. 34:50a young man he mentored, Charlie Kirk.
475. 34:53Listen to The Christian World View with David Wheaton, Saturday mornings at 8th Central on
476. 34:57American Family Radio.
477. 35:04The Hamilton Quarter podcast and One-Minute Commentaries are available at aFR.net.
478. 35:10Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
479. 35:15Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner.
480. 35:17I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham Hamilton the third this evening.
481. 35:21You can regularly catch me on the morning program on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
482. 35:27We're live from seven to eight central time eight to nine eastern.
483. 35:31You can always listen to the podcast, the rebroadcast of the show at AFR.net.
484. 35:38You can also listen to our AFR exclusive podcast on demand with Jenna Ellis.
485. 35:43That's my weekly podcast where I do a little deeper dive into issues that are relevant
486. 35:49to the present day.
487. 35:51And actually this Friday, I'm really excited.
488. 35:53I will have Ray Comfort, who is the very well known Christian Evangelist talking about his
489. 35:59Life story in ministry and is brand new book so you can get that on demand on aFR this Friday
490. 36:06And I'm speaking with my special guest this evening
491. 36:09My mom Valerie Ellis who is a biblical counselor and you can see now why I have had such a
492. 36:16Privilege and blessing of growing up with wonderful parents who took very seriously
493. 36:23first and foremost their commitment and relationship to each other to the Lord and
494. 36:28and then homeschooled me and my brothers
495. 36:31and took discipleship very seriously.
496. 36:33And they take a knowledge of God and theology very seriously.
497. 36:38And so my mom now has a very robust ministry
498. 36:43in biblical counseling and training
499. 36:45and counseling people in an understanding
500. 36:50of the things of God and God's solutions
501. 36:53to human suffering, to our fallen state,
502. 36:57to the human condition and how we should live our lives
503. 36:59as Christians.
504. 37:00And before the break, Mom, you were talking about
505. 37:03the difference between what a Christian counselor does
506. 37:08with addressing heart and spiritual problems
507. 37:12versus what psychological counselors do,
508. 37:15which is basically just to affirm the goal of the individual
509. 37:20to say, well, I don't want to feel depressed anymore,
510. 37:22so help me not feel that way anymore,
511. 37:25but not necessarily resolve the spiritual issue
512. 37:29because they can't, they're not equipped
513. 37:30with those biblical tools.
514. 37:32And you were saying about your own experience
515. 37:35in dealing with people who come with those types of issues
516. 37:42and what your experience has been.
517. 37:46Yes, I was saying that in my 25 or 30 years of counseling
518. 37:51when I have someone come in who is convinced,
519. 37:55They might have had a lot of psychological counseling.
520. 37:59Their convince that their problem is physical.
521. 38:04They need drugs, et cetera.
522. 38:06And but it's not working.
523. 38:08And someone may have given a my name or told them
524. 38:11to try biblical counseling.
525. 38:13I just say, you know, nobody but God knows
526. 38:15it just has a physical component to it,
527. 38:20something in your body.
528. 38:22But let's get your spiritual life going really strong
529. 38:27and see what the effect of that is.
530. 38:29And so that's what the counseling becomes.
531. 38:33And over a period of time,
532. 38:35they start walking with the Lord,
533. 38:37they start trusting in the Lord,
534. 38:38they understand as promises,
535. 38:40they get a biblical worldview of things.
536. 38:43I have never had any counseling then
537. 38:46who has the exact same emotional, intense,
538. 38:53problems as they did when they first came in.
539. 38:57Our spiritual life definitely impacts our emotions
540. 39:01and the way that we are dealing with whatever situation
541. 39:04we're in.
542. 39:05Even if the situation itself doesn't change much,
543. 39:08you still have a difficult child,
544. 39:09you still have a difficult spouse,
545. 39:11you still have a difficult month at work or something.
546. 39:15Once our spiritual life is going strongly,
547. 39:17we think biblically about things.
548. 39:21The situation is the same,
549. 39:22but we're not the same in the situation
550. 39:24and it makes a huge difference.
551. 39:27Yeah, and again, there's so much hope in the truth
552. 39:31that God tells us and that he provides
553. 39:37in his special revelation so that we can know how to deal
554. 39:41with these situations.
555. 39:42And there's been a lot in the news recently
556. 39:45about how many of the statistics
557. 39:48of how many people in the United States
558. 39:51are on some kind of mind-altering or hormone-changing medication, whether that's an SSRI, that's
559. 40:00an anti-anxiety medication, that's something to deal with how they feel about their life
560. 40:06and their circumstances or psychotropic drugs.
561. 40:10And this is a really alarming statistic because to me, you know, it's obviously not a medical
562. 40:15practitioner or anything, but to me, it shows that we are as a society, not only overprescribing,
563. 40:23but simply trying to minimize the pain and suffering that is in the world, even in the
564. 40:31midst of a society and a time that we probably have the best comforts of any time period across
565. 40:43human history.
566. 40:44a lot of comforts and pleasures, especially as Americans,
567. 40:48and yet we can't deal with life's problems.
568. 40:51And so the incidences and the studies and the data
569. 40:56of how many people are essentially,
570. 40:59and I'm generalizing here,
571. 41:00but they're trying to simply get rid of the negative feelings.
572. 41:04They think they shouldn't feel depressed.
573. 41:07They shouldn't feel anxiety.
574. 41:08They shouldn't feel frustration.
575. 41:10They shouldn't feel sadness.
576. 41:12And so instead of dealing with it in a spiritual way
577. 41:16and in a biblical way, they often do turn simply
578. 41:20to medication because that's all that the secular world has
579. 41:22to offer.
580. 41:23And one of the most prominent cases going on right now,
581. 41:27for listeners, if you have been following this Lindsey Clancy
582. 41:31case, and I'm going to talk about this more on my radio show
583. 41:34tomorrow morning, so definitely tune in there.
584. 41:37But she is on trial for an absolutely horrific crime
585. 41:42of the strangling death of her three children.
586. 41:46And what came out, that was reported by Fox News
587. 41:50and other outlets, was that she was on a total,
588. 41:55and prescribed a total of like 17 different medications
589. 42:01through a four or so month period
590. 42:05by several different prescribers.
591. 42:08That to me is just patently irresponsible
592. 42:11and I would love to know how much that influenced
593. 42:15her decision and her life.
594. 42:18But the question for you, Mom, is,
595. 42:21what does all of this tell you about a society
596. 42:24that can't overall deal with the trials
597. 42:29and the tribulations of life?
598. 42:31Yeah, this is absolutely unpunctionable
599. 42:34that anybody would prescribe, those medications to this woman
600. 42:39in the doses that they had with the different ones
601. 42:43that she had to take more than one, right?
602. 42:47It was a cocktail.
603. 42:49And this is what they're doing.
604. 42:50They are prescribing a cocktail of these different drugs.
605. 42:53My expert for this topic is Dr. Peter Bragan.
606. 42:57I would refer the audience to get some of his books
607. 43:02and some of his material.
608. 43:03Peter Bragan is a psychiatrist.
609. 43:06He's written many books.
610. 43:07His website is bragan.com and it's B as in boy, R-E-G-I-N.
611. 43:13He's a psychiatrist who is blowing the whistle
612. 43:15on his profession.
613. 43:17And he's in his 80s now.
614. 43:19He has been on the developmental committee of almost every,
615. 43:23it's not every new psychotropic drug in the last 50 years.
616. 43:28He knows what these are doing.
617. 43:30He said the pharmaceutical companies
618. 43:33are guilty of what they're doing.
619. 43:36They make up diagnoses, they have a new drug
620. 43:40and they make up a new diagnosis
621. 43:42so that they can market it to the people.
622. 43:44That's what he's saying.
623. 43:46They have no knowledge of the interactions
624. 43:49between the drugs.
625. 43:50It's all a game.
626. 43:51Oh, maybe a little more of this
627. 43:53and a little less of this, more of this.
628. 43:55He said they have no knowledge how they interact.
629. 43:59Every single one of them is toxic to the brain.
630. 44:02every single one of them.
631. 44:04And he said, they work by harming the brain.
632. 44:08And not only that,
633. 44:09they are designed to get past your brain's natural barriers
634. 44:14to toxins.
635. 44:15Think about that.
636. 44:16They purpose, they know your brain has,
637. 44:19God gave us our brain some barriers to toxins to our brain.
638. 44:23These drugs are designed to get past that.
639. 44:25They're all toxic to the brain.
640. 44:27And he also says,
641. 44:29They are all low doses of anesthesia
642. 44:33because you're feeling these intense emotions,
643. 44:36you can't handle life.
644. 44:38They numb you out just enough, you can function,
645. 44:41but you can't feel anything.
646. 44:43And then the people come in and say,
647. 44:44I'm still not feeling happy because you are now
648. 44:47under this low dose of anesthesia,
649. 44:50very low dose of anesthesia, but it's effective.
650. 44:52They don't feel happy, but they're not as sad
651. 44:55or as anxious as they used to be, maybe.
652. 44:58And so they said, oh, you're still not happy.
653. 45:00So maybe we'll try this.
654. 45:02It's all, I think it's, you're right that it's some,
655. 45:07it's this practice, it's malpractice,
656. 45:09it's not helping the person at all become who God
657. 45:14could have them be if they learn his answers to things.
658. 45:18And not just take a drug and numb yourself out.
659. 45:21Yeah, and by the way, Dr. Bragan's book
660. 45:25that I would recommend is called Your Drug,
661. 45:27may be your problem.
662. 45:29And then the subtitle is how and why
663. 45:32to stop taking psychiatric medications.
664. 45:35And he has all the medications in there,
665. 45:37what their side effects are,
666. 45:39and what they're, why you should get off of them,
667. 45:43and how you can get off of them.
668. 45:45Cause he says, it's dangerous to go on these drugs,
669. 45:48and it is just as dangerous to get off once you've been on them.
670. 45:51You have to have a doctor helping you get off.
671. 45:55Yeah, and this is-
672. 45:56There's problems getting off.
673. 45:58Yeah, and this is why, you know, with someone like Lindsey Clancy, who was prescribed all
674. 46:02these and, you know, who knows what interactions they may have had or if she, you know, was
675. 46:07getting off of one without one prescriber knowing or, you know, exactly how all of this
676. 46:13affected her consciousness.
677. 46:17And, and when you're talking about, you know, the, the low doses of anesthesia, I mean, when
678. 46:23this is numbing the pain and perhaps numbing some of the negative emotions. This has the obvious
679. 46:31effect of numbing guilt as well and numbing perhaps the moral code of conduct that God has
680. 46:38written on our hearts that say we know that certain things are evil to do and when people are so
681. 46:46numbed out to those things they can ultimately go in and commit various crimes and terrible
682. 46:54choices because they're so numbed out on some of these drugs. And there's been a lot of studies and
683. 47:02some instances of very prominent criminal cases where it's not been directly attributable because
684. 47:13You know, obviously big pharma doesn't want that,
685. 47:14but there's been a lot of correlation and speculation
686. 47:19that a lot of this is due to these overprescribing.
687. 47:22And so for listeners who are, you know, maybe this is
688. 47:24the first time you've heard about the difference
689. 47:26between biblical counseling and psychological counseling
690. 47:30or, you know, some of these topics.
691. 47:32I would encourage you to email me if you wanna reach
692. 47:35my mom, Valerie Ellis, if you have questions for her.
693. 47:38She does, counseling by Zoom.
694. 47:40She also has a theology class.
695. 47:42You can email me, Jenna, at aFR.net,
696. 47:44and I'm happy to afford those along,
697. 47:46as Tim Wildman always says,
698. 47:48keep them positive and encouraging as well,
699. 47:51for any of those messages,
700. 47:52but you are welcome to email me,
701. 47:55and I can forward those along.
702. 47:56But overall, Mom, in just the last few minutes
703. 47:59that we have here,
704. 48:00and I love and appreciate your ministry,
705. 48:03and the ministry that you've given for so many years to me
706. 48:07as a counselor and helping me through things
707. 48:10that have been very prominent in the news of my own difficulties to always keep the focus
708. 48:18on the truth of God.
709. 48:19Instead of spiraling into depression or dealing with life in all kinds of various other ways,
710. 48:28when you keep the truth at the forefront, you can deal with difficulty and it's not easy,
711. 48:35but you can deal with it in a way that honors God and ultimately that you are loving Him
712. 48:39and worshiping him through that.
713. 48:42And so how would you encourage people who maybe are listening to this and they're thinking,
714. 48:46I don't see hope in my circumstance to consider biblical counseling?
715. 48:51Yeah, that is a broad question.
716. 48:54So, you know, and it would, of course, depend on each person's particular situation.
717. 49:00But in general, let me give you an example would be I got a guy contacted me.
718. 49:07He had been in psychological counseling for, I think, about five years.
719. 49:12He had been, he was destroying his family with his anger.
720. 49:16They diagnosed him with explosive anger syndrome.
721. 49:20I didn't even know that was a thing before I met him.
722. 49:23He's on so many drugs.
723. 49:25His wife was ready to divorce him, but he was convinced that he had something like a disease.
724. 49:32You have something.
725. 49:33I have this thing and I can never get rid of it.
726. 49:36hopeless is incurable. And I said, let me tell you something. This isn't going to be what your
727. 49:42psychiatrist or your psychologist told you, but you don't have to be angry. Like let's talk about
728. 49:48why you are angry. You can grow in the Lord and not have explosive anger that is destroying your family.
729. 49:56You can take responsibility for that. There is hope you can repent. God can change your heart.
730. 50:02You can move forward.
731. 50:03You and your wife can have a good relationship.
732. 50:06You can have a marriage that honors God.
733. 50:08I mean, I gave him so much hope.
734. 50:09But he's just staring at me like, you got to be kidding.
735. 50:13I don't have to live like this.
736. 50:15I said, no, I was so, I felt so bad for him.
737. 50:18He was completely convinced that, you know, he has,
738. 50:21you might as well be saying you have a brain tumor
739. 50:24or something. I can't do anything about it.
740. 50:25And we're already at a time, but this is what the Bible offers
741. 50:29is hope so you can email me jenna at afr.net and I'll see our regular listeners tomorrow
742. 50:35morning. Thanks so much mom.
743. 50:41The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American
744. 50:46Family Association or American Family Radio.