("Best-of" Edition from 1/29/25) Dr. Robert Gagnon, the nation’s foremost scholar on biblical sexual ethics, steps into “The Corner.”

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:07This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:27Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:29And now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:31Good evening, everybody.
12. 0:34Welcome to the Hamilton Corner.
13. 0:36Abraham Hamilton III is my name,
14. 0:38and I'm host of the program.
15. 0:39Thank you for joining us this evening.
16. 0:41I am joined as is our custom here
17. 0:45by the Corner contingent right across from me.
18. 0:47My man, 100 grand, Mr. Bobby.
19. 0:49Rosa.
20. 0:51He think I noticed it, but you see him
21. 0:53with the Pat Riley with the comb,
22. 0:55with the slick one back.
23. 0:56You think I noticed that today?
24. 0:58Hey, hey, hey, you work what you got.
25. 1:02You got the slick going on.
26. 1:03I noticed that.
27. 1:06And in the screening room, we have produced extraordinary
28. 1:09often imitated but never duplicated.
29. 1:10Y'all know the deal.
30. 1:12The real Jay Mac ladies and gentlemen,
31. 1:13we are ready to rock and roll.
32. 1:15Yes, get a good picture on the slick Jeff.
33. 1:17That's what I'm talking about.
34. 1:18Produce extraordinary.
35. 1:21And we are ready to rock and roll
36. 1:22with today's edition of the program, man.
37. 1:25Step away for a few moments and all kinds of things happen.
38. 1:29I wasn't with you earlier this week because I was in DC,
39. 1:33attending to some legal business on behalf
40. 1:35of the American Family Association.
41. 1:38But I'm glad to be back with you this evening.
42. 1:42Let me first, the first thing I want to do is welcome
43. 1:45to the American Family Radio Network,
44. 1:47two stations in Alabama,
45. 1:48WRID 97.7 FM and WKUA, 88.5 FM both in the Birmingham
46. 1:59area and in the Tuscaloosa, Alabama listening area. Welcome to the American family radio
47. 2:05family. We're glad to have you with us here. Those stations should be live right now. Also,
48. 2:14I mean, man, you want to talk about things happening? I don't know if you saw this yet, but
49. 2:20Michigan Democrat Senator Gary Peters has announced he is not running for reelection in
50. 2:25in 2026, leaving that seat to be an open contested seat with no incumbent in the 2026 elections.
51. 2:35That being a state that President Trump won quite handily, frankly, and a host of viable
52. 2:42Republican potential candidates there, tutor Dixon, who just almost unceded Gretchen Whitmer
53. 2:48there, newly elected Republican Congressman Mike James is in the area.
54. 2:53have a host of people who will vie for that seat, but they are there. And then you also
55. 3:00have, I mean, this is, man, you want to talk about how to off the presses. I mean, President
56. 3:06Trump is, you can't, there has to be another metaphor, you don't hit the ground running
57. 3:11and going to get it. So you have his announcement that several career, career, DC elite, including
58. 3:24DOJ officials, they've been terminated.
59. 3:27You have one Phyllis Fong, who was the Inspector General for the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
60. 3:32President Trump fired her.
61. 3:33She had to be escorted today by security because she refused to leave.
62. 3:37She pulled the, she pulled the j-hood and I'm telling you, I ain't going nowhere.
63. 3:44Because DC is the best thing that I ever know.
64. 3:50I'm telling you no way.
65. 3:56President Trump got to security guards saying the fill is phone you're fired pack your things
66. 4:02Get your hat your coat and get on out
67. 4:04The door folks these people are refusing to leave and not only that we got to get to the word of God
68. 4:09But when I saw this I'm telling you I'm minding my business
69. 4:12I'm in DC trying to get things going on the legal front and then I see on the social media Selena Selena Gomez the actress
70. 4:23Look I've been upset before okay, I've been angry. I have never once thought I am so
71. 4:28upset Bobby has my lighting I'm so angry please log into my Instagram please I'm
72. 4:36so disturbed I can't be bothered to do not that account Bobby the other account
73. 4:41come on man stick with me my people I'm like your people ma'am you're born in
74. 4:52Texas what are you talking about and my thoughts immediately I gotta get some
75. 5:00hand-by-pants that's what I thought are you kidding me you're not even paying
76. 5:11attention to who's being deported. You're not even paying attention. And then, oh man,
77. 5:20what a revelation. Press Secretary Levitt to being asked, I thought the Trump administration
78. 5:26was going to prioritize criminal aliens. She said they are. We are. But what about the aliens
79. 5:31without a criminal man? If they've entered our country illegally, they are by definition,
80. 5:36criminals. It's a federal misdemeanor to enter the country illegally. It's only a civil violation
81. 5:47to overstay your visa. But to enter our country illegally is a criminal violation. And while
82. 5:52we own that point, I've told you guys that the birthright citizenship argument is not
83. 5:57even an argument. The two components for citizenship, natural born or born citizens born or naturalized
84. 6:08in the United States of America, sovereign territory,
85. 6:10and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
86. 6:13Key words, subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
87. 6:17If you have violated our laws to enter
88. 6:20into our sovereign territory,
89. 6:22you are by very virtue of your status,
90. 6:25not subject to our jurisdiction,
91. 6:27because we as the United States of America
92. 6:29have a way for aliens to interact country legally.
93. 6:33There's a difference between aliens and illegal aliens.
94. 6:36illegal aliens, those who have breached our national borders
95. 6:40illegally, are by very virtue of their conduct, refusing to
96. 6:44subject themselves to the jurisdiction of our nation. So you
97. 6:48cannot breach our laws upon entrance and then have a child in
98. 6:51our nation and say, my child is automatically a citizen of your
99. 6:55fair and fine nation, because I have birthed them on your
100. 6:58territory. That's just a non sequitur. And it's something
101. 7:01you search the history that immediately after the passage of
102. 7:0414th Amendment for nearly 100 years. It wasn't even a conversation because everybody understands
103. 7:11that it's one thing to be within the sovereign territory of the United States of America and an
104. 7:15entirely separate thing to be subject to the jurisdiction of our land. Oh man, I got a lot to get
105. 7:20to and got a much time. Let's get to the word of God. Numbers chapter 16, number chapter 16,
106. 7:29and this is a picture and I have been pressing us to consider that God has blessed our nation
107. 7:39with a reprieve. We must stewart this season in a nation's history wisely. And in particular,
108. 7:47I'm appealing to our eternal family members that we understand like the sons of Isakar,
109. 7:53the time that we end and know what we are to do. Numbers chapter 16, just to give you a bit of
110. 7:58the context, this is where initially, I'm sorry, numbers chapter 16 verses 46 through 48, I didn't
111. 8:05and even give the verse reference.
112. 8:08Numbers chapter 16 verses 46 through 48.
113. 8:10This is the account in scripture where
114. 8:12Chora initially the Alliance of Rebels consisted of Chora,
115. 8:16Dathan, Abiram and On.
116. 8:19All right.
117. 8:21It ultimately you saw On kind of faded out
118. 8:23of that whole scenario.
119. 8:25The simple reality, Chora as a Levite felt froggy.
120. 8:29It was like, who is you?
121. 8:30Moses he didn't say who are you?
122. 8:32He said, who is you?
123. 8:32Like he from Gerttown somewhere.
124. 8:35Who is you Moses?
125. 8:36Who said you are the one who should be able to
126. 8:40dictate to us as if you are God's chosen leader,
127. 8:45which he clearly was.
128. 8:48The Lord ended up dealing with them.
129. 8:51And then in the latter part of this chapter,
130. 8:53the very next day you see some of the concerns spreads.
131. 8:56When I say concern, rebellion, sympathy is employed
132. 9:03by many in the camp of the Israelites.
133. 9:05but I want you to see this one picture in particular,
134. 9:08which I believe gives a visual depiction
135. 9:11of what the Lord desires for us
136. 9:13and this time we'll reprieve that God has given us.
137. 9:15The very next day, the contingent of Israelites grumble
138. 9:20against Moses, even after witnessing what happened
139. 9:23to Corodeth in the biorem.
140. 9:25And then in verse 46, this is what transpires thereafter.
141. 9:30And Moses said to Aaron, said to Aaron,
142. 9:34because when the rebellion spreads,
143. 9:37The plague breaks out amongst the people of the Israelites.
144. 9:40In verse 46, number 1646,
145. 9:43and Moses said to Aaron, take your sensor,
146. 9:46put fire on it from off the altar
147. 9:50and lay incense on it and carry it quickly
148. 9:53to the congregation and make atonement for them
149. 9:56for wrath has gone out from the Lord.
150. 9:59The plague has begun.
151. 10:00So Aaron took it as Moses said
152. 10:02and ran into the midst of the assembly
153. 10:04and behold, the plague had already begun among the people
154. 10:08And he put on the incense and made a tone, it for the people and he stood between the dead
155. 10:15and the living and the plague was stopped.
156. 10:19This is what I want you to see.
157. 10:22The plague is broken out.
158. 10:24Bodies are dropping.
159. 10:25All right.
160. 10:26Moses instructs Aaron as a high priest.
161. 10:30Take your sensor, rush into the frame, rush into the frame.
162. 10:35Make a tone for the people.
163. 10:37scripture records that where Aaron stood, the plague stopped.
164. 10:41Aaron stood as the dividing line between the dead and the living.
165. 10:44Instance all throughout the Hebrew scripture has been representative of prayer and praise
166. 10:52throughout the Hebrew scripture.
167. 10:56But the Lord through Moses dispatched Aaron to serve as a vehicle through which his living
168. 11:04intercession served as a dividing line between death and life.
169. 11:09The phrase is often presented.
170. 11:11and one man make a difference.
171. 11:13And I encourage everybody to listen to the program Friday,
172. 11:16because I'm going in a bit more detail about this.
173. 11:20God has given us a reprieve.
174. 11:21There are a lot of things that are happening
175. 11:23with breakneck pace through the federal government
176. 11:26at this stage.
177. 11:27I've urged caution before, however,
178. 11:29executive orders are not a manner
179. 11:31of sustaining government long-term.
180. 11:33However, first of all, you have to bring the nation back
181. 11:36to a stasis of sanity to help us recover
182. 11:39from the Biden administration's years.
183. 11:41That's the first thing.
184. 11:43Secondarily, the momentum following these executive orders
185. 11:45will set the course for the populace to see,
186. 11:48man, these things are working and give congress members
187. 11:50courage to make lasting a lot of the initiatives
188. 11:56that right now have happened via executive fiat.
189. 12:00But I want to tell you plainly,
190. 12:02America cannot be made great solely through electoral politics,
191. 12:06solely through governmental policies,
192. 12:09government has a role to play, no doubt about it.
193. 12:12but the bulk of what is necessary for the United States of America
194. 12:15has to transpire through her people.
195. 12:18More particularly, what has to happen for the United States of America
196. 12:23has to come through the Lord's bride.
197. 12:27The scripture is clear that the Lord invested His body
198. 12:30in the earth at the times and places that He's determined by divine providence
199. 12:34to be salt and light. He has deposited His body
200. 12:37to be the pillar and ground of truth.
201. 12:40Much of what has transpired and what must transpire requires all hands,
202. 12:47investment, all hands on deck investment by the bride of Christ.
203. 12:55Aaron's function here is a demonstration of living intercession.
204. 13:00Can one person make a difference?
205. 13:02Aaron's investment as being dispatched by God through Moses,
206. 13:07served as a vehicle through which it was a dividing line between life and death.
207. 13:14government can do only what government can do.
208. 13:18The genius of the nation, or should I say the genius
209. 13:23that I would argue that the Lord inspired the founding fathers
210. 13:26to implement for our nation is one where the people
211. 13:28had the freedom to function as bearers of God's image
212. 13:37as his recipients or as recipients, I should say,
213. 13:44of his delegated authority.
214. 13:46I want to present this scripture to you so that you could
215. 13:48have a picture of what living intercession looks like,
216. 13:51that God through you will dispatch you to be a vehicle
217. 13:55through which under his authority,
218. 13:57owned by his grace, empowered by his spirit
219. 14:01to serve as a dividing line between death and life.
220. 14:05We have got to be proponents of his commission.
221. 14:09We have got to be his hands and feet,
222. 14:12and here's the key, similar to the principle
223. 14:14that Nehemiah articulated.
224. 14:16The whole wall of the rules
225. 14:17and was able to be constructed in 52 days by each family.
226. 14:22Manning the lane in front of their homes.
227. 14:24God is not requiring you to fix the whole world,
228. 14:27to change the whole world.
229. 14:28He is requiring you to be His hands and feet in your world,
230. 14:32where He is deposited you.
231. 14:34It is incumbent upon you and me to take full responsibility
232. 14:37for the scope and the breath and the width
233. 14:40of influence that God has afforded us.
234. 14:43Whether it's something that is lights, camera, action
235. 14:46before the nation is see, or whether you are one who labors
236. 14:49and what the world would describe as anonymity.
237. 14:50And I'll tell you, there's no such thing as anonymity in God's kingdom because he has the
238. 14:55books of recorded human history.
239. 15:01A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker, love always gives and we're all called to a lifestyle
240. 15:09of love.
241. 15:10One of, if not the most loving things you and I can do is share the gospel with the world
242. 15:15that despises to hear it.
243. 15:17So one of the ways whereby we live a life of love is living a life and a lifestyle of
244. 15:23sharing the Gospel as we go.
245. 15:26So a part of walking in love,
246. 15:27walking in the wisdom and the power of love
247. 15:30is knowing that yes, if you're a believer,
248. 15:32then it's your responsibility to be a bright
249. 15:35and bold witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
250. 15:38Sharing the Gospel as the Holy Spirit directs us,
251. 15:41sharing the Gospel because that helps address
252. 15:44the biggest need of the world.
253. 15:47Every human being's greatest need
254. 15:49is the need to know Jesus Christ.
255. 15:51So one of the ways whereby we live a life of love
256. 15:54is living a life and a lifestyle
257. 15:56of sharing the gospel as we go.
258. 16:06Shining light into the darkness,
259. 16:08this is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
260. 16:12Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner, Abraham, Hamilton III.
261. 16:14Here I am delighted to have on the program with me,
262. 16:18a man who I have revered and just,
263. 16:22I've been able to glean wisdom from.
264. 16:24I have just been blessed by his work, his ministry for several years, and then I had the privilege
265. 16:31of meeting him in person.
266. 16:32This past December, I'm speaking of none other than Dr. Robert Gagnon, who was a visiting
267. 16:37scholar at Wesley Biblical Seminary in Ridgley, Mississippi, and he has taught previously at
268. 16:42Middlebury College, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and Houston Christian University.
269. 16:47He has degrees from Dartmouth College, his bachelor's, Harvard Divinity School, a master's
270. 16:52there and Princeton Theological Seminary, a PhD from there.
271. 16:56He's published a number of works, especially on the Bible and LGBTQ issues, including the
272. 17:02Bible and homosexual practice, which I cannot recommend to you enough because it is a go
273. 17:08to resource for me on these issues.
274. 17:11So I commend them to you and our audience to utilize them as well.
275. 17:14Dr. Guardian, thank you for joining me here on the Hamilton Corner.
276. 17:18So I'm so glad to be on your program, Abraham.
277. 17:21Oh, I'm telling you, the pleasure is certainly, certainly mine.
278. 17:25And it was a pleasure getting to meet you in person in December, this past December,
279. 17:29to where you just, you really blessed me. The plethora of things you said, blessed me,
280. 17:34but the one I will never forget is when you articulated God's wisdom and responding to the
281. 17:39Pharisees in Matthew 19 concerning marriage and how the Lord, before getting to the interaction
282. 17:46between husbands and wives, affirmed the creation mandate he making them both male and female,
283. 17:51and addressing that. So I hope to get to that in the course of our conversation. But right now,
284. 17:55what I want to introduce our conversation to the audience here with is the piece you wrote for
285. 18:02the American Spectator, the headline or the subject line I should say for your piece is
286. 18:08Trump's fidelity to his election promise, in which you, in my estimation, properly highlight
287. 18:14something that it alone affirms the election from this past fall.
288. 18:23And President Trump's proclamation that there are only two sexes.
289. 18:27I know a lot of times, popularly says gender and you get into that in your piece.
290. 18:31But you wrote so profoundly about this.
291. 18:35And I just want to walk through the piece kind of systematically.
292. 18:38Why do you think President Trump's action here?
293. 18:41this one action, as you said, your piece,
294. 18:43justifies the outcome of the 2024 election.
295. 18:49Well, let me preface by saying also, Abraham,
296. 18:53since we agreed to do this presentation to other executive
297. 18:59orders have come down relating to transgenderism.
298. 19:02I just want to note that at the beginning before moving to
299. 19:04that, which is that we have the executive order that happened
300. 19:09on Monday about transgenders in the military.
301. 19:14And then we have an executive order they came down yesterday
302. 19:19prohibiting the chemical and surgical mutilation of children.
303. 19:23So those we can also add to the general discussion.
304. 19:27This is, you know, sometimes we just think Trump,
305. 19:32who's not really a board and bread conservative
306. 19:37in many respects.
307. 19:39And this is the thing, this is highlighting the irony of God here.
308. 19:43Yet he has become the instrument by God to do what other conservatives have not been able
309. 19:51to achieve.
310. 19:52Extraordinary.
311. 19:53All credit and glory to God, right?
312. 19:55Amen.
313. 19:56And the reason why this is so important and why it justifies a vote for Trump is that I think
314. 20:04This is the biggest issue that we have been facing over the last several years.
315. 20:11I mean, this extends even beyond the issue of gay marriage and homosexual practice,
316. 20:17because this is cutting even more drastically at any objective biological notion
317. 20:26of what a male and a female is.
318. 20:29And it's doing great harm to women in terms of their private spaces, in terms of their sports,
319. 20:40which creates a certain amount of danger to them when you have men playing with women in contact sports.
320. 20:47And it's really redefining and redefining subjectively the very understanding of male and female,
321. 20:57so that it has no definition. How can you say that there's anything more important to society
322. 21:04than that? Because the interaction of male and female in society is the most basic and important
323. 21:13element of social interactions. The very fabric of society itself depends on it.
324. 21:21And if we can't even speak the truth about that, and we're indoctrinating children into
325. 21:31what can only be called trans insanity, where there is no reliable definition of male and
326. 21:36female, then you are basically undercutting the matrix of society itself.
327. 21:43I mean, this isn't just like, you know, where we spend our money, the issue of inflation,
328. 21:50issues like the illegal immigration problem across the southern border. All these are problematic,
329. 21:58but there's nothing more problematic than this when you can end up by chemically castrating and
330. 22:07surgically mutilating children, putting males in female restrooms and locker rooms and sports
331. 22:15and shelters and prisons all the way across the board. This is a tremendous prompt for society.
332. 22:23And now here we have Trump coming along, doing whatever he can with all the power of the presidency
333. 22:31behind him to alter that drastic course. Extraordinary. You're absolutely right. And
334. 22:38in which you're articulating literally as an assault on reality, you know, if, you know,
335. 22:42You know, Francis Shapers coined the phrase,
336. 22:44having one's feet firmly planted in mid-air.
337. 22:48You know, how can we have any semblance of society
338. 22:52if we have no grasp on reality?
339. 22:57You know, if reality is limited can be reduced
340. 23:00to the subjective whims of the fallen human heart,
341. 23:04then we're, it's like you've lost the game
342. 23:07before the whistle is even started, you know?
343. 23:10And this is something that I would describe
344. 23:14as cultural demolition men understand.
345. 23:17Yeah, people like Georgie Lukox and others,
346. 23:19Georgie Lukox is the full mentor of a critical theory
347. 23:23in its application broadly to where he literally coined
348. 23:27the term cultural terrorism to accomplish this very thing,
349. 23:31to deprive mankind of the capacity
350. 23:34to have a grasp on reality as a means
351. 23:38of social revolution and contrary to what many people
352. 23:43might assert this attack on reality
353. 23:46also undermines the authority of scripture
354. 23:49and is simultaneously an attack on the gospel.
355. 23:52And your articulation of it being the most important thing
356. 23:56that a government figure and the government in total
357. 24:00can address is not hyperbolic.
358. 24:03It really is not hyperbolic.
359. 24:05It is an accurate assessment
360. 24:08and with the flurry of activity happening happening
361. 24:12with the federal government, which I'm grateful for,
362. 24:15it's easy to miss the significance of this moment,
363. 24:17which is why I wanted to have you on to discuss it.
364. 24:20Yeah, and if I might add too,
365. 24:22if we just think about what the creation texts teach us
366. 24:25in Genesis one and in Genesis two,
367. 24:28which as you know, you alluded to it earlier,
368. 24:30so important for Genesis, understanding of sexual ethics.
369. 24:34immediately goes back to Genesis 127, male and female, he made them, which is integrated
370. 24:41immediately with the creation of human beings in God's image and likeness, right? And then
371. 24:48we have Genesis 2, 24, 221 to 24 about the creation of woman and the whole matrix of marriage
372. 24:56that a man may become joined to a woman and the two become one flesh. For Jesus, this
373. 25:03of the foundation of all of sexual ethics and think about what issues that impinges on politically.
374. 25:11When you think about human beings being created in God's image and lightness,
375. 25:17the image bearing of human beings, well, that certainly connects up with abortion,
376. 25:22which is the taking of human life made in God's image. But also the fact that
377. 25:27that that image bearing coalesces
378. 25:30with God's creation of male and female.
379. 25:33Now, God has created all animals,
380. 25:37pretty much, a couple of exceptions, male and female, right?
381. 25:40But only in the case of the human creation
382. 25:44is that creation as male and female
383. 25:47integrated with being made in God's image.
384. 25:51As a way of saying that what we do sexually
385. 25:54can either enhance or efface that image bearing,
386. 26:01depending how we respond.
387. 26:02You see how critical it is?
388. 26:04Yes.
389. 26:05Bearing God's image and being made male and female,
390. 26:08that's a critical part, probably the most critical part
391. 26:14of the human dimension.
392. 26:16And again, the essential biological nature of the sexes.
393. 26:20Now people can talk about other forms of sexuality,
394. 26:25but the only intentional creation on God's part,
395. 26:31the only deliberate design of God's part,
396. 26:34not affected by sin, is the creation of male and female,
397. 26:38man and woman.
398. 26:40And you see how that is pictured in Genesis 2.
399. 26:44You know that word that they often render ribs,
400. 26:47salah, sing of it, salah, een, chloro,
401. 26:50he takes from the rib of Adam, actually,
402. 26:52better rendered side.
403. 26:54That term everywhere else in the Hebrew Bible,
404. 26:58Selah is used, what once it's used for the side of a hill,
405. 27:02everywhere else, about 33 other times,
406. 27:05it's used for the side of a piece of sacral architecture.
407. 27:09The Ark of the Covenant, the Portable Tabernacle,
408. 27:15the Solomonic sides of the Solomonic Temple,
409. 27:18the sides of the eschatological temple in Ezekiel.
410. 27:21And it's a way of saying similar to what Genesis 1 does
411. 27:25in integrating being made male and female
412. 27:27with being made in God's image,
413. 27:29what Genesis 2, 21 and 24 does is say
414. 27:32that we are sacral architecture.
415. 27:34Come on.
416. 27:35In God's design of us as male and female.
417. 27:39And so taking aside from the Adam or original humanic,
418. 27:44that emphasis on extracting from that human aside
419. 27:49and creating out of that side a woman,
420. 27:52so that thereafter, the marital union
421. 27:55between a man and a woman is not only a joining
422. 28:00or union of the two into one, but it is a reunion
423. 28:06of what was originally indivisible.
424. 28:09And this are two halves of the sexual spectrum,
425. 28:12male and female, right?
426. 28:13Each sex only one half of the sexual spectrum.
427. 28:17When they unite in marriage,
428. 28:18form an integrated sexual whole. That is not to be tampered with. Come on, by society. That
429. 28:26is absolutely bedrock. Amen. Absolutely foundational. And the whole notion now homosexual practice
430. 28:33is a great threat to that. Graver still is transgenderism because it completely eliminates
431. 28:41an normative objective biologically based definition of male and female. And not only that, but
432. 28:48the other ramification here is all the threat that that poses to our civil liberties, our
433. 28:54freedom of speech and the free expression of religion, right? So that the state is moving
434. 29:00in a direction where they can take your child out of your home. If you do not decide to affirm
435. 29:09their so-called transition to the other sex, right? Yes.
436. 29:13basically charge you with child abuse.
437. 29:16Yes.
438. 29:17We're not going along with it and promote that chemical
439. 29:21castration and surgical mutilation of your child
440. 29:25against your wishes.
441. 29:26And then if you don't, in the workplace,
442. 29:29if you don't use the mandatory trans pronouns,
443. 29:33we're heading in that direction and already there
444. 29:35in some localities and states,
445. 29:38then you can lose your job, right?
446. 29:41don't call a man or a woman or a woman or a man.
447. 29:44So you see how it impinges on so many facets of society,
448. 29:50the family, the church, employment,
449. 29:54the speech and the public sphere,
450. 29:56everything gets affected by it.
451. 29:58Yes.
452. 29:58Yes, you're absolutely right.
453. 30:00And we have a couple minutes left in this segment
454. 30:03and you've already done it,
455. 30:04but I just want to invite you to do it here
456. 30:06to place a punctuation on this
457. 30:09that it's so foundational, and you shared this in DC,
458. 30:14in December we were there,
459. 30:16that when Jesus is questioned about marriage
460. 30:18before he gets into the interaction
461. 30:20between the only viable candidates for marriage,
462. 30:23he affirms this foundational, as you mentioned,
463. 30:26sacrosanct, emagodanus, if you will,
464. 30:30of maleness and femaleness,
465. 30:32would you just begin to speak to that?
466. 30:34And if we need to carry it over to the next segment,
467. 30:35we will do so.
468. 30:37But would you share that with our audience here?
469. 30:40He has very important to understand.
470. 30:41You know, a lot of people say, well, Jesus didn't speak to homosexual practice or transgenderism.
471. 30:46Well, not directly.
472. 30:47He didn't have to speak to it directly.
473. 30:50He knew what his scriptures said about it in the scriptures of ancient Israel.
474. 30:54And there is absolutely no ambiguity there whatsoever.
475. 30:57And there is no Jew in his time and first century Palestine or in the diaspora, for that matter,
476. 31:02outside of Palestine.
477. 31:03Who's questioning that?
478. 31:05So there's no point for him going around and saying, don't have sex with the same sex.
479. 31:09try to transition to the opposite sex, right? Nobody's advocating it, advocating it, nobody's doing it.
480. 31:15But what he does do on the positive side of things is establish a male female requirement
481. 31:22or prerequisite for sexual ethics, right? There's two sides of a coin here. One is you can say,
482. 31:29no homosexual practice, no transgenderism. That's the negative version of it. The positive version
483. 31:35is that there is a biologically based male-female requirement for all sexual activity, which
484. 31:43they can only be genuine, valid sexual activity in the context of marriage in Jesus' viewpoint.
485. 31:49That's what he's going for. So, one has to ask when he says, when he's talking about just the
486. 31:56question of divorce and remarriage, which incidentally has implications as well for polygamy in
487. 32:03an ancient Israel because polygamy is easier to prohibit
488. 32:07than remarriage after divorce because it's worse.
489. 32:10So when she, this is prohibiting remarriage after divorce,
490. 32:12he's prohibiting polygamy as well.
491. 32:15We can talk about maybe exceptions remarriage after divorce.
492. 32:17Let me stop you right there because the disrespectful music
493. 32:19has started, you know, that's the bumper music.
494. 32:21It's so disrespectful because we are having
495. 32:23such a vibrant conversation.
496. 32:25Folks, I wanna ask you to share this show
497. 32:28with your friends in love once it's so vital
498. 32:30that we understand these foundational concepts
499. 32:32and why this is probably the most important thing
500. 32:36that the Trump administration has done to date
501. 32:39because it's so foundational to who God has made us to be.
502. 32:43It's so foundational to what society is.
503. 32:46And as our friend Dr. Renton Rathman has told us,
504. 32:48a true biblical worldview is understanding God's world
505. 32:52from God's perspective.
506. 33:00Streaming.afa.net has now become AFA stream
507. 33:04and you can find it at stream.afa.net.
508. 33:08Easy, we remove the letters ING.
509. 33:11Our experts have determined that eliminating those three keystrokes multiplied over hundreds
510. 33:15of thousands of AFA stream visits could reduce the national debt and maybe increase the gross
511. 33:21domestic product.
512. 33:22AFA stream, formerly streaming.afa.net.
513. 33:26Improvements to the economy are purely theoretical.
514. 33:29The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrets are available at eFR.net.
515. 33:40back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
516. 33:45Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner, Abraham Hamilton the third year.
517. 33:48My guest is Dr. Robert Gagnan.
518. 33:50And before we went to the break, Dr. Gagnan, you were explaining why it's so instructive
519. 33:57for us when Jesus was queried about marriage in Matthew 19 that he began by affirming the
520. 34:04maleness and femaleness that God established as the only viable participants in the marital union.
521. 34:11And you were explaining why that was so pivotal and necessary to have this entire conversation.
522. 34:15So if you would, please pick up where we left off.
523. 34:19The reason why Jesus begins his discussion in Mark 10 and parallel to Matthew 19 on divorce and
524. 34:27remarriage with male and female, he made them in Genesis 127 is because Jesus is telling his
525. 34:34Here is to think about God's intentionality in creation.
526. 34:38What does God do?
527. 34:40He creates two primary sexes, male and female.
528. 34:44Doesn't create the intersection,
529. 34:46doesn't create anything else, just male and female.
530. 34:49This was pre-fall,
531. 34:51pre-the introduction of sin into the world.
532. 34:54How many sexes are involved in male and female?
533. 34:56Well, quite obviously.
534. 34:58Two, it's a sexual binary, right?
535. 35:01Now, Jesus says that foundation of God's intentional creation of a sexual binary is the basis for arriving at a conclusion about number.
536. 35:15How many people ought there to be in a sexual union, whether at any one time polygamy or serially across time in a revolving door of divorce and remarriage?
537. 35:28How many should there be?
538. 35:29Well, let's see, how many sections did God deliberately design as sexual counterparts?
539. 35:37Two.
540. 35:38So, how many people do you think God to be in a sexual union lifelong?
541. 35:45Two.
542. 35:48Once you bring together the two halves of the sexual spectrum, male and female, into an
543. 35:53integrated sexual whole, a third party or more becomes neither necessary nor desirable.
544. 36:01You know, further that means is the male-female requirement for sexual relations is not just
545. 36:09one among many sexual standards.
546. 36:16It is the foundation upon which the entire superstructure of sexual ethics is built.
547. 36:28That means the worst thing that you can do sexually in a consensual, into human relationship is
548. 36:40treat oneself as transgender or have sex with a member of the same sex.
549. 36:48Those are regarded in scripture and affirmed by Jesus as the most severe, consensual, into
550. 36:58human sexual offenses.
551. 36:59and putting it that way. I left out pedophilia and I left out bestiality. Those aside, this
552. 37:05is worse than anything else between humans that is consensual. So for human beings to pull
553. 37:13the rug out from under that edifice of sexual ethics is to destroy the whole.
554. 37:22Which is the objective ultimately of Satan, which walks about as a roaring lion seeking
555. 37:29whom he may devour, which gives the indication that that devouring takes place with the level
556. 37:35of human consent to it.
557. 37:36Yeah.
558. 37:37Now we think because our culture has so saturated us with the LGBTQ ideology, coercively, forcibly,
559. 37:49we've lost this sense, this natural sense of revulsion at behaviors that we should be
560. 37:56revolted in.
561. 37:58And now people tend to think, well, gee, I hope this doesn't lead to something worse,
562. 38:03like polyamory or consensual incest.
563. 38:07You know what?
564. 38:08Those things are not worse in God's eyes.
565. 38:11The worst thing has already been approved of by much of society, the transgenderism, the
566. 38:18homosexual practice, the approval of polyamory and adult consensual incest has to follow logically
567. 38:27from those two things.
568. 38:29As polyamory is a violation of the principle of number, tunus, which itself is predicated
569. 38:35on the tunus of the sexes, which culture is now trying to eviscerate.
570. 38:40And what's wrong with incis?
571. 38:43Too much uber-sangeness structurally speaking and their embodied existences.
572. 38:50Too much kinship identity, not enough otherness.
573. 38:53Well, the sense of excessive structural embodied sameness is greater in the case of homosexual
574. 39:01unions than it is in the case of incest.
575. 39:05At least incestuous unions can still procreate, albeit with higher pro-grative abnormalities,
576. 39:10indicating a degree of complementarity on the sexual level.
577. 39:16Same sex unions can't procreate at all simply not because the equipment of malfunction, but
578. 39:23because they are not designed that way.
579. 39:25It's showing the complete incompatibility, sexually, and
580. 39:31excessive sameness.
581. 39:32So if we say it to incest, it should be even more so in the
582. 39:37case of homosexual practice, we're seeing a man dressed as a
583. 39:41woman. So we have to we are values have been inverted, even in
584. 39:47Christian society. Yes.
585. 39:49And we have to get back to what the scriptural matrix is.
586. 39:51In the scripture has already told us the mechanism for that inversion. Romans 1 18 is not that mankind is deprived of an
587. 40:00Institutional awareness of this is not that it's a complete ignorance even is that men suppress the truth by wicked conduct hyper exposure and hyper stimulation
588. 40:08Is to make the abominable and abnormal normalized to wear that?
589. 40:14We become nose blind because we live in the locker room
590. 40:17So we don't know what locker room smells that should be
591. 40:21revolted to us because we've been living in the locker room.
592. 40:24Yeah, that is exactly Paul's argument in Romans 1 18 to 32,
593. 40:29when he talks about human beings suppressing the truth about God accessible to them
594. 40:36in the material structures of creation.
595. 40:39It's not just that all people sin. Yes, that's true, and it should be obvious.
596. 40:45But it's that all human beings
597. 40:48suppress the truth and
598. 40:51Favor the lie is living judged by God not because they sinned and didn't know
599. 40:58But rather because they sinned and knew even in the absence of the direct revelation of Scripture
600. 41:06They have the indirect revelation of the material structures of creation that God made
601. 41:13Yes. So he first pin points idolatry. Of course, if it's absurd to worship a statue made in the image
602. 41:21of a human being or worse an animal and pretend that that's the high God that created the expense
603. 41:27of the cosmos. Ridiculous. But now what does he pick? This is like an extended vise-less. Paul has
604. 41:32lots of vise-less. Don't do the following things where he won't inherit the kingdom of God. Always
605. 41:37He's one too in either order in those vise lists as idolatry and sexual immorality.
606. 41:43Sometimes sexual immorality first, sometimes idolatry.
607. 41:46More often idolatry first followed by sexual immorality.
608. 41:49So that's what Paul is doing when he gets to Romans 124 to 127.
609. 41:53He's talking about sexual immorality right after idolatry.
610. 41:57And which offense does he single out among sexually immoral offenses that constitute a deliberate
611. 42:05suppression of the truth of God accessible in the material structures of creation. Same
612. 42:12sex intercourse. Why is that the most obvious? Because it's obvious the design of God is embedded
613. 42:23in maleness and femaleness, the anatomy, the physiological function of procreation,
614. 42:29and even the psychology of male and female, we have a compatibility between the two. Two
615. 42:38sexual counterparts, it's clearly clear that one fits the other. And to reject that is a
616. 42:47deliberate suppression of the truth. Who can say, who can say Abraham, they're not aware
617. 42:53of the fact that male and female are designed as sexual counterparts. You can't see that?
618. 42:59don't know that, you know, I have jokingly sometimes say it takes a lot of years of education, Abraham,
619. 43:07to suppress that truth. You've got to be heavily indoctrinated. I shouldn't say education. It's
620. 43:12really a lot of years of indoctrination. Yes. You've got to be heavily indoctrinated to reject
621. 43:18that obvious reality. And that's why Paul singles out same sex intercourse, among all sexually
622. 43:24memorial offenses at that point. It's precisely because you see how obvious this is.
623. 43:30You see how they're suppressing the truth about creation here. And some people say, well, this
624. 43:36has got nothing to do with creation, really? Look at Genesis 1, what is the most important
625. 43:42creative act of God in Genesis 1? It's the creation on the sixth day of man God. Yeah,
626. 43:48on the six human beings made in his image made in his image and into just again,
627. 43:55run a highlighter over this point, the demonic deception in transgendarism. And this is why there's
628. 44:03even a schism within, you know, the LG in bees versus the teas because the live transgenderism
629. 44:10is that there is no such thing as a tooness to where transgender ideology finds the concept of
630. 44:17of Tunis, even in the rebellious homosexual concept as being institutionally incompatible
631. 44:23to the notion of transgenderism, which says there is no maleness or femaleness, which
632. 44:29is why the fluidity is embraced because it's a denial at foundational level of the reality
633. 44:35of that Tunis that you've been talking about.
634. 44:38That's right.
635. 44:39Because if you can, if you don't have an objective biological reproductive basis on which to talk
636. 44:45about what a male and what a female is, then all your left is subjective self-understanding,
637. 44:53unmoored to biological realities. And at that point, you can only derive circular definitions
638. 45:02of what a male and a female is. Well, what's a female, you know, Matt Wallace has become
639. 45:06famous over this, right, in this film on that, asking people, what is a woman? Well, a woman
640. 45:10is a person who thinks he or she is a woman. Yeah. Well, that's a circular definition. You
641. 45:17haven't told me what a woman is though. Yeah. They're not unable to define it. You've got,
642. 45:23you see, you have this massive house of cards that are being built or nothing. Or it's what
643. 45:28you talked about this from CS Lewis, this, you know, what did you put it as the, as the
644. 45:34foundation in the air? Yeah, feet firmly planted in mid air. Yeah, friends.
645. 45:38Yeah, exactly.
646. 45:39Yes, yes, Lewis, yeah.
647. 45:40Nothing to back it up.
648. 45:42Yeah, and we even have, and this is just, you know, indicative of the depth of the depravity.
649. 45:48This is why I've been saying on my show here, God has granted us a reprieve.
650. 45:52Government has its role, but it cannot do everything that's necessary to make America,
651. 45:56the shining city on the hill that I believe God would have us to be.
652. 45:59But we have a lifetime tenure, US Supreme Court justice, who is confirmed after stating
653. 46:04an official hearing that she is incapable or unwilling to articulate what a woman is.
654. 46:11How can you be qualified to navigate the judiciable issues of our nation if you are institutionally
655. 46:17incapable or unwilling to state something as foundational to mankind as what a woman is?
656. 46:25Right.
657. 46:26And underscore, yes, A, she's a woman and can't define what a woman is.
658. 46:30be she's going to be a Supreme Court Justice, um, Katachi Brown, and she cannot define what
659. 46:36a woman is. This is absolutely extraordinary. But of course, as you said, as you indicated
660. 46:42also, she probably would define it, but only by this circular definition of woman is whoever
661. 46:49thinks you should use a woman is a woman. But she doesn't realize that by doing that,
662. 46:55actually harming the legal protections that have been given women in the United States,
663. 47:01which is precisely what was addressed in this first executive order about transgenderism.
664. 47:10We have two minutes left.
665. 47:14If possible, can you kind of highlight for the audience here some of these executive orders
666. 47:22And I guess in kind of staccato bullet point fashion,
667. 47:25just say why they're so important that President Trump
668. 47:28has issued these.
669. 47:29And my prayer is that Congress will find the courage
670. 47:31to establish a permanency to these things
671. 47:34that President Trump has initiated
672. 47:36in executive order.
673. 47:37Yeah, well, I think the Republicans would,
674. 47:39but the Democrats to a person will not.
675. 47:42And the problem is that in the Senate,
676. 47:44because of the possibility of a filibuster,
677. 47:47you have to be able to have the most of the essential
678. 47:50three-fifths in order to close up that filibuster,
679. 47:53cloture, and that's going to take 60 votes.
680. 47:55If that had to happen, we're going to need eight
681. 47:57Democrats from the Senate to join in in this sanity view
682. 48:02of sexuality, but they'll never do it, which is why,
683. 48:05unfortunately, we're left with executive orders at this
684. 48:08point. So the first executive order that he put forward
685. 48:12implemented right on the same day of his swearing in is one
686. 48:19called the defending women from gender ideology extremism and restoring biological truth to
687. 48:25the federal government. And what that's doing is simply saying they're only going to be,
688. 48:30there's going to be only two sexes as far as the federal government is concerned, male and female,
689. 48:34and it's going to be biologically based based on the fact that females produce egg cells and
690. 48:40males are capable of producing sperm cells. Okay, straightforward definition.
691. 48:44And from conception, he affirms that this is from conception, which is remarkable to consider
692. 48:51that he is simply underscoring that he is the most pro-life president in modern American history.
693. 48:55Dr. Gagnan, I know you can hear this disrespectful music. We're going to have to have you back on to
694. 48:59talk about this because we're just in the first week or so in the Trump administration. There's
695. 49:04a lot more to happen. Thank you for joining us here in the program.
696. 49:10The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those
697. 49:14of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.