July 25, 2025 · 49:48

Robert Bortins, CEO of Classical Conversations, steps into “The Corner” for the first time.

Culture & Media

Show notes

0:00 - 15:00. Psalms 51:6. God desires that we have truth in the inner man. 15:00 - 31:00. Robert Bortins, CEO of Classical Conversations, steps into “The Corner” for the first time. 31:00 - 48:00. Cultivation of the heart and mind is central to discipleship. or call: 800-326-4543 To donate call : 877-616-2396

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800-326-4543
877-616-2396

Full transcript Auto-generated · 8,496 words

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
0:06This is the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio home.
0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
0:18And the philosophies of this world.
0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
0:24Even in this dark moment.
0:26Let's not miss our moment.
0:28And now, the Hamilton Corner.
0:31Good evening, everybody.
0:34Welcome to the Hamilton Corner.
0:35Abraham Hamilton III is my name.
0:37Welcome to the program.
0:39I am joined by the produced extraordinaire, often imitated,
0:43never duplicated the real.
0:46Jay Mac, ladies and gentlemen, and don't forget to check out
0:49his Mac visions.
0:51Go ahead and check it out to see what needs to be seen.
0:55So you can do what needs to be done.
1:01At this very moment, many of you, if not most of you are making your transition from your part
1:05time jobs where you generate an income to your full time jobs where you cultivate an outcome.
1:10And as you do so, I want to remind you to do so with intentionality.
1:17Understand in the primacy that God places on the family, recognizing that the first human
1:24institution that he created was in fact the family with marriage at the center.
1:31did that intentionally to inform how we engage because simply put what goes on in your house
1:39is far more important than what goes on in the White House. This is stated not to minimize
1:47the significance of what transpires in the White House mean. This week, as underscored
1:56just how important that is. But with all that is transpire there, you and I are directly
2:02accountable and responsible for what happens in our home because we are we have direct influence
2:09in control of what happens in our homes. And if we do not respond accordingly, if we do not respond
2:18accordingly, the significance of that of the impact of the results, it's innumerable. You know,
2:29I've often stated if you look at the metastasizing Leviathan state, it corresponds directly to
2:36to retrenchments in the family.
2:41The scripture says if a man doesn't care
2:42for his own household, he's worse than in an infidel.
2:46The more families have gone away, for example,
2:48from caring for our elderly relatives, our parents,
2:52and things, government amplifies its efforts to do so.
2:55The more the family structures decimated in the home,
2:58the nuclear family is decimated,
3:00the more the welfare state expands.
3:02It's a direct correlation.
3:05And for too long, we have not recognized that correlation.
3:09And those are kind of what I would describe as external metrics.
3:13But if you look at the internal fiber of our nation,
3:17as the family is eroded,
3:21we are also eroding God's primary mission station
3:25for generational Christ-following fidelity.
3:32Because the parents are primarily responsible
3:34according to scripture, for evangelizing,
3:37catechizing, and discipling our children.
3:40But as the families continue to be attacked,
3:43as the families continue to be eroded. No surprise that the spiritual formation of our nation similarly
3:54is eroded. We have not arrived where we are currently overnight, but we certainly have arrived here
4:01and do in large part to us, unfortunately, embracing a societally normalized diminishment
4:09of the significance of the family.
4:13You know, I know President Trump's slogan was,
4:14make America great again,
4:15but I'll just tell you plainly,
4:16you can't make America great again,
4:18but I'm making family great again in America.
4:21And you can't make family great again,
4:23without God being our central focus,
4:29not just offering mental assent,
4:33but recognizing humility and submission
4:35and engaging in the lifestyle of worship,
4:37the pinnacle of which is obedience.
4:40The pinnacle of the lifestyle of worship is obedience.
4:46So as you're making your transition,
4:50I want to encourage you to do so recognizing
4:52what God has done in making the family
4:54and giving you and I the express privilege
4:57to be a part of his work.
4:59To the word of God we go, to the word of God we go.
5:04Trying to get someone to shout out of this forehead.
5:06You have my forehead looking like an eight head on this camera,
5:08what?
5:09What y'all laughing at?
5:12to the word of God we go Psalm 51.
5:15Psalm 51, this, oh man, I've been meditating on this and actually in our family devotional
5:26and worship time, I talked to my children about this.
5:32And this is unfortunately a conversation that has not had frequently enough in our society.
5:36And in Psalm 51, David makes a statement.
5:42And this is when he is expressing contrition following his horrendous sin with Bathsheba
5:48and then ultimately the attendant sin with Uriah compounding and amplifying his sin.
5:54But as he's confessing and repenting, he makes this statement in that expression, Psalm 51 verse
6:036.
6:04Psalm 51 verse 6.
6:11I've Psalm 51 6 and it says this.
6:20Behold, you desire truth in the innermost being and in the hidden part, you will make me know wisdom.
6:31The King James says, behold, you desire truth in the inward parts.
6:38Truth in my innermost being.
6:41Truth in the inward parts.
6:43Guys, there is no premium you could place on integrity.
6:51Obviously we should be people who are truth tellers and people who tell the truth, but
6:58God as he always does drills down deeper than that truth in the inward parts.
7:06Very rarely and there are some circumstances that are exceptions to this, but usually when
7:11people lie and the lies are lies of commission where people are affirmatively offering statements
7:18to deceive and their eyes of lies of omission to where people intentionally omit information
7:26for the express purposes of deception.
7:32People sometimes exaggerate to make themselves look a little bit better than they are.
7:39Other times people diminish others to make them look and see a little bit worse.
7:47The God desires of his people, man, is truth in the inward parts.
7:54Truth in the inward parts.
7:56And in the hidden part, you will make me know wisdom, wisdom.
8:05There are people, man, who will lie for money, they'll lie for other things.
8:12And the thing I want to encourage you with this evening is what do you really see when
8:22you look in the mirror?
8:25Who is the real you?
8:30not only assessing your conduct and external engagement, but what is the attitude and intention
8:34of your heart? When you put head to pillow at night, is there internal conflict or you
8:47at P or or or are you at peace? Because truth abounds in you and the inward part. It is
9:00greatly disappointing. You know, you have this is not like the biggest issue, but you
9:05You have this issue like with Adam Schiff, the US Senator now from California, US Representative
9:14previously from California, declaring a residence in Maryland as his primary residence, clearly
9:23in an effort to achieve mortgage favorability.
9:28If you know anything about mortgages, you know that you get better rates on your primary
9:34residence than you do on a secondary residence.
9:38I'm not even getting into like the criminality of it
9:42because that is, that's mortgage fraud.
9:43If you're lying about your residence,
9:46that's a criminal offense, it's mortgage fraud, no doubt.
9:50But beyond that, are you comfortable telling lies?
9:57Is that okay with you?
10:00Is it a circumstantial analysis, you know?
10:03Situational ethics.
10:07I think one of the big problems that we're facing,
10:09even with this, you know, relatively, not relatively,
10:12but recent phenomenon of pastors having public falls
10:18and moral failures.
10:22One thing that I know is that the God that I serve
10:28was the God who has revealed himself in scripture.
10:33Yeshua, Messiah.
10:37He's a gracious and loving God.
10:41It's the same gracious and loving God that says
10:45he chastises those whom he loves.
10:47correct those whom he loves. I know that there is never any, well let me say it this way,
10:56I know when there are phenomenons or circumstances where people experience public failures, public
11:01moral failings, that those public exposures have followed God appealing to these people
11:09in private before they ever expose publicly. The Lord is appealing to them by his spirit.
11:14The Lord sends people their way.
11:16The Lord convicts them personally,
11:19but nobody else's involvement.
11:21But what happens is people stave off that conviction.
11:28You know, you had the recent, you know,
11:30social media phenomena.
11:31I saw this when I was in Phoenix last week
11:34where you had the CEO of the Astronomer Corporation, right?
11:39He's hugged up with his adulterous bookamaboop
11:42at the Coldplay concert, right?
11:45And I just want you to just think about this.
11:50This man is married to his wife,
11:53who is not at the Copeland concert.
11:54This woman who he's hugged up with
11:56is married to a man who is not at the Copeland concert.
12:00But they at the concert, you know, they just,
12:03they swaying and he hugged up,
12:07looking like, you know, somebody at the junior prom,
12:11all the thing they're missing is that the loud,
12:14a student courseage, you know?
12:17But you know that they know that they were wrong,
12:21that they were wrong, and you know that they knew
12:23that they were wrong before they got to the Co-Play concert.
12:25You know how you know?
12:27As soon as the camera gets on,
12:29and what did they do?
12:30What did they do, Jeff?
12:31I know you saw this video.
12:33Soon as, and look, it's a couple's cam.
12:36So think about this.
12:37It ain't like that surprise that there's a couple's cam.
12:40They just don't expect the camera to come on them.
12:43Co-Play, they're probably,
12:44Yeah, yeah, everybody welcome tonight.
12:47Woo hoo, beautiful people in the audience.
12:49I see you out there and then the camera is swirling
12:52and searching, you know?
12:53Then the camera hits them.
12:56What is the first thing old boy does?
13:01He's under the table.
13:04He ducks, he's knocking, trying to duck out of the camera.
13:07What is the first thing old girl does?
13:08She turns.
13:13If there was any inclination that them being hugged up
13:16at the Coldplay concert wasn't a problem,
13:18they never would have reacted that way.
13:20But notice, this is what I'm driving at.
13:23Notice it was not until the camera was focused on them.
13:31Did their physical posture acknowledge
13:33what they already knew inside?
13:36You get what I'm saying?
13:38That was a public demonstration of a lack of truth
13:41in the inward parts because the acknowledgement
13:47of the truth required external compulsion,
13:51the Coldplay concert camera.
13:53And then you have all the intended circumstances.
13:55Now they wanna face divorce,
13:57You know, the astronomer, CEO's wife is saying she's going back to her main, all this other
14:03kind of stuff.
14:04All that stuff's subsequent.
14:06But if there was truth in the inward parts, you cannot tell me that was the first time that
14:10they considered, man, you know what we're doing?
14:12We're wrong.
14:13We file out here.
14:16I want you to consider that.
14:18They acknowledged what they were doing was wrong only with external compulsion.
14:24But truth in the inward parts would have you recognize it initially.
14:31I'm not talking about just an egregious examples like adulterous affairs.
14:35I'm talking about integrity, man.
14:39We need a revival of integrity, but I know that's only going to come with an outpouring
14:47of God's spirit.
14:48But as for us who are in this audience, man, truth in the inward parts, that is what God
14:55desires.
15:01A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker, the Gospel of Matthew chapter 28 starting in
15:07verse 18, it tells us these words.
15:09And Jesus came and spoke to them saying,
15:11all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
15:15Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
15:17baptizing them in the name of the Father
15:19and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
15:22Teaching them to observe all things
15:23that I've commanded you and lo, I'm with you always,
15:26even to the end of the age, amen.
15:29That contains what we call the great commission.
15:32God calls us to be a disciple and to make disciples.
15:36and that's a command God lays before us each and every day.
15:39Every day is a day for us to follow Jesus Christ
15:42and to be involved in the work of helping
15:44and teaching and encouraging others
15:45to follow Jesus Christ as well.
15:48Ask someone how you can pray for them.
15:50Encourage someone to read three chapters
15:53in the Bible every day.
15:54Pray for God to help you to both be a faithful disciple
15:57and to make disciples as well.
16:06Shiting light into the darkness,
16:08this is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
16:12Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner, Abraham Hamilton,
16:14the third with you.
16:15Thank you for tuning into the program.
16:18I'm delighted to have on the program with me
16:20the CEO of Classical Conversations,
16:24Mr. Robert Bortons.
16:28Classical Conversations is an organization,
16:31a ministry that includes, I would say,
16:33an educational methodology that has grown
16:35from supporting homeschoolers in about 40 states
16:38to supporting homeschoolers in over 50 countries.
16:43You heard that 50 countries
16:45and has become the world's largest
16:48classical homeschooling organization
16:50under the guidance of its CEO, Robert Borden.
16:52Mr. Borden, thank you for joining me here
16:54on the Hamilton Corner.
16:58Thanks for having me.
16:58I'm excited to be here and God is good.
17:01Amen, amen, God is good.
17:05I wanna start simply by asking you
17:08to share with the audience here.
17:09What is classical conversations?
17:14Yeah, so classical conversations
17:16was started my family's basement in 1997
17:19to help people at homeschool through high school
17:21and give their children a classical Christian education.
17:26And so we've done that for almost, I guess, 28 years now.
17:31We curate curriculum, we provide services
17:34and we equip parents to build flourishing homeschool
17:37communities. And kind of what we do that's different in the marketplace of homeschooling is we create
17:44a local community where your family can go with other families typically around, you know, one of
17:50your 30 families are in a community. And once a week have accountability, do things like public
17:56speaking, you know, science, do things like debate, all sorts of different activities that you can't
18:04really do alone. So we like to call it home-centered education more than homeschooling because once you
18:09kind of get into it, you know, you're very rarely at home with your kids because you're out doing all
18:14sorts of things. And so what classical conversations does is use that classical methodology that aligns
18:21kind of with brain development the way that God created us and that accountability of community.
18:27I like how you say that home-centered education people who know in this audience that I'm a
18:33I'm a homeschooled dad.
18:35We were talking before we came on the air,
18:38that I heard you speak last year at the HSLDA
18:41National Leaders Conference.
18:42I'm on the board at HSLDA,
18:44and I'm quite familiar with classical methodology,
18:47and I get lots of questions about homeschooling,
18:50and classical conversations is a tremendous option
18:53for home-centered education,
18:55because it has, in my view,
18:56kind of a great mix of the home being the center of it,
18:59but you also build or participate in a community
19:04that is similarly focused.
19:06So really you end up having families helping each other out
19:09in their efforts to really disciple their children
19:11in including the cultivation of their minds.
19:15How would you describe the kind of community develop aspect
19:19that is unique to classical conversations?
19:23Yeah, well the Bible says, you know, three strains.
19:29Three strains?
19:31I'm waiting for the rest of the strains.
19:33for technology. It's amazing when it works.
19:36And when it's, oh no, you're back with us.
19:39Okay, I can hear you were saying the Bible says three strands.
19:42That's the last thing we heard.
19:43Okay, the Bible says three strands are not easily broken.
19:47And so a community helps us lift each other up, right?
19:51If we're on a long journey of education,
19:53you're not always gonna have a great day.
19:55And so you need each other.
19:57And so it's classical conversations.
20:00You have the parents.
20:01You have those tutors that are helping the parents,
20:03and then you've got classical conversations
20:06that trying to find the best materials,
20:08the best way to help you out.
20:10We have message boards, we have academic advisors,
20:13so just a group of people helping each other.
20:16It's a truly grassroots movement.
20:19It's just older women supporting younger women,
20:23teaching them what to do.
20:25So it's really designed a lot of what we see in the Bible
20:29and that that community aspect is a positive peer pressure
20:33and it's friends, not just for the kids,
20:35but for the parents because when you're doing something hard,
20:38homeschooling is hard, raising children is hard, right?
20:40Let's not lie to people.
20:42It is difficult.
20:43And when we can do it together,
20:44we can lift each other up on those tough days
20:47and support each other.
20:48So it really is a community.
20:50And you know, you always get stories every single year
20:52that bring me to tears of, you know, someone getting sick
20:54or some tragedy happening in that classical conversations
20:58community, stepping around that person or that family, making sure that they have everything
21:03they need.
21:04I want to make sure we get this in and I'll do it again later in the show, but where can
21:08people go to find out more information about classical conversations to consider whether
21:12or not it's an option that would fit their family well?
21:15Yeah, of course, we're on all the social medias, but classicalconversations.com.
21:20And if you put in your zip code, we're actually going to hook you up with a local homeschooling
21:25parent that will answer any questions for you.
21:28It'll be someone probably within 30 minutes of your house, maybe even in your same neighborhood
21:33that will love to talk to you about homeschooling and classical education.
21:37I want to definitely get to classical education, but I want to take a few minutes and just ask
21:42you, you refer to God being good, how the Bible serves as an anchor for the classical
21:47conversations methodology in terms of instruction with a home-centered pedagogical development.
21:55You're CEO now, you said you started the classical conversations your family did in 97 in your
22:00basement.
22:02How did you come to faith in Christ Jesus?
22:05Yeah, I mean, I think being homeschooled, I would say I almost know Jesus from the beginning.
22:13When I was five or six, I remember just being in church and hearing a sermon in a Seattle,
22:19Washington area where we were living at that time.
22:21And my mom had recently said that she believed in Christ.
22:27And my dad wasn't there yet.
22:30But just from that time forward,
22:32I had always just kind of believed
22:34there wasn't any particular moment that I can remember,
22:38but just knowing God from being very young.
22:41And that doesn't mean, I mean, there's plenty of times,
22:44especially as a young adult trying to find my own way
22:47and testing the scriptures to see if they were real
22:51and just realizing that the world
22:53did not have anything to offer us.
22:54And so I would say when I was a 27 years old,
22:59I rededicated my life to Christ
23:02and just have not turned to the left or right since then.
23:08And how did that kind of
23:12roil over into you becoming CEO of classical conversations?
23:19Yeah, I mean, I always loved being homeschooled.
23:21I always tell people if classical conversations didn't exist,
23:24I would still be homeschooling my own children.
23:27But having that experience of being homeschooled myself,
23:31being a parent now is a different worldview,
23:36a different perspective on that whole endeavor,
23:38but I just loved being homeschooled.
23:40I had an industrial engineering degree
23:42from Clemson University.
23:44I did that.
23:46I worked for some Fortune 500 companies,
23:48I worked my way up the corporate ladder
23:49and just as classical conversations was growing,
23:53my mom needed more help and support
23:55and I just felt like God was saying,
23:58it was time to come home and help her out
24:02and to help other people see that homeschooling
24:05doesn't have to be scary,
24:06doesn't have to be confusing.
24:09And so I came on board and started helping out
24:13with our marketing department
24:14and some of our different services
24:16testing service at the time and just kind of did a transition with my mom over a couple
24:22years to take over day-to-day operations of the organization.
24:25Now, I know classical conversations is kind of in the word classical.
24:31We used to understand in America what the classical educational methodology included.
24:37Would you just help our audience here understand a bit what is classical education?
24:43Yeah, so there's kind of two perspectives of classical education.
24:48The first one is just the methodology.
24:50And so you might have remembered or even when you're younger heard of grammar schools,
24:54now they're called elementary schools, but grammar schools basically means it's really
25:00the art of naming, attending, memorizing, expressing, and storytelling, and children love all of
25:07those things.
25:08And it's just they memorize copious amounts of information.
25:11So they memorize things like the periodic table, the multiplication tables.
25:16And those things sound boring to adults, but they, kids enjoy it and you can do it so it's
25:21a lot of fun by playing games and stomping around and doing jumping jacks and putting them
25:27to songs.
25:28And so the first step of classical education is just getting in a lot of knowledge inside
25:33of the children's brains.
25:35They don't necessarily understand it yet.
25:37That's when that next phase called the dialectic or logic stage.
25:43That's typically kind of in middle school or early high school
25:46where they've got this amazing amount of information
25:48and they're starting to put it together.
25:50They're starting to see how.
25:54Oh, we pause again.
25:56So the grammar stage is basically
25:59like the informational download stage, if you will, right?
26:05The informational download and we have,
26:08I think we have Robert back.
26:10You back with us, Robert?
26:12Yeah, I'm not seeing the issues on my end.
26:15Yeah, I don't, man.
26:16I don't know what's going on,
26:17but you were explaining first the grammar stage
26:20of the classical educational model.
26:24And I just kind of summarized,
26:26it's like the informational download stage.
26:28It's just information being downloaded,
26:30information being input,
26:32and then you are about to transition into the dialectic
26:34or the logic stage of the classical method org.
26:38and we'll get to it, but the Latin trivia, if you will.
26:40But go ahead.
26:42Yeah, the trivia.
26:43Yep, so the dialectics, the second stage,
26:45and it's really where you're putting these ideas together
26:47and synthesizing them and understanding them.
26:49And then the final stage is the rhetoric stage
26:52where you can explain it to other people.
26:54And so you're doing things like debate and mock trial
26:58and writing papers and doing all those sorts of things.
27:02And so that's the stage of learning.
27:05Those three stages of learning,
27:06you go through when you learn anything.
27:09So even as an adult, if you want to say,
27:11learn how to change the oil in your car,
27:14you got to know the grammar of changing your oil
27:17and the dialectic and the rhetoric
27:18is actually doing it.
27:20And so you do that.
27:22And then the other thing of the classical method
27:23is you go read original source documents.
27:26So you don't read some woke professors' interpretation
27:30of the Federalist Papers.
27:32You read the Federalist Papers and see what they're actually
27:34trying to say as they are creating our government.
27:37So you go read our Constitution
27:39and someone else's Constitution and you say,
27:41okay, what other countries' Constitution say?
27:44What does ours say?
27:45Why is ours stood the test of time
27:49and things of that nature?
27:50So you go read like Plato
27:53and you go study Latin or Greek.
27:55And so you're trying to see what have the best minds
27:58in human history come up with,
28:00what is stood the test of time, both good and bad ideas?
28:03So yeah, we'll read Karl Marx and understand why so many communist countries have had pain
28:09and suffering and all the terrible things that go along with it so that we understand the
28:15world around us.
28:16So if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it all about reading what the
28:22best minds have offered over the last 3,000 years.
28:25Now this is, and you may be able to help our audience understand that, understand this,
28:30The classical method was pretty much the predominant method of instruction that we had in America
28:36before there was really this mainstreaming of a government educational complex.
28:43This is the way our founders were trained.
28:45This is the way, for example, Thomas Jefferson was trained.
28:48George Washington, you go down the whole list.
28:51Am I articulating that accurately, that this classical understanding and this approach to
28:56education was the way we did things in America since our founding up until a relatively recent,
29:03the recent past. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. So as a founding of America, roughly 90% of people
29:10were literate and I only had the Bible, some readers and the local newspaper. And so
29:18you didn't need the government funding education. That actually came in after the Napoleonic wars
29:25from the country of Prussia. So our truancy laws and public education systems are only about 200
29:34years old. So for the first 50 to almost 100 years, depending on what state you are in,
29:41everything was classical education. But when Prussia lost the Napoleonic Wars,
29:47they wanted to have a fighting force and someone who would obey their king. And so they created
29:54public education and then people like Horace Mann wanted to bring that sort of education
30:01to the United States and they did and installed our public education system.
30:08And people will remember in our audience here Horace Mann is the wonderful gentleman who
30:13I've referred to as quote in his lectures on education who said quote we view those parents
30:20who have given children to our public education system
30:27as having given hostages to our cause.
30:30In quote, Horace Mann is the one who said that,
30:32that he viewed the parents who had surrendered their children
30:35to his Prussian informed educational approach,
30:39diverging from a classical method
30:41that was anchored in scripture, I would argue frankly,
30:44as having given hostages to their cause,
30:46which I've said, I don't view anybody who would say
30:48that my children are hostages as someone who's trying to help me.
30:52Is it that horse man you're talking about, Robert?
30:55Yeah, absolutely.
30:56The one that has about 1,000 public schools named after him.
30:59And I think top baseball cards just released a baseball card
31:04with his face on it as a hero of American society.
31:07So the guy who's reason why we have 34% literacy rate
31:13in the United States and why Jay Leno and people like that
31:17can make fun of a man on a street, episodes of asking people, you know, who's the governor
31:24of their state or what city's the capital of the United States or why we send money to
31:30foreign countries that no one can point onto on a map that horseman.
31:34Yes.
31:35So the three components, the grammar, diaglactic or the logic phase of the classical trivia
31:44and the rhetoric phase and accompanied with the original source
31:49reading
31:52all of that was jettison'd would you say
31:55um that was an accidental phenomenon of transpartum country would you say that was something that occurred intentionally?
32:00Oh, it was absolutely intentional. Um, you can go back and read their writings what they were planning to do
32:06and quite frankly it worked. I mean even Ronald Reagan in 1980 and I think most people would say oh our education system wasn't that bad in 1980
32:13He said if a foreign adversary put our education system, public education system on our country,
32:20we would declare it an act of war.
32:23And it's only gotten worse since then.
32:27And we all recognize that during COVID and why the number of homeschoolers spiked from roughly
32:32two million to somewhere around four million depending on whose numbers you want to look
32:37at.
32:38But yeah, no, it was intentional.
32:40It was gradual.
32:42And now we are tasting the bitter fruit of it as a society.
32:47You listen to the Hamilton Corner or watch the Hamilton Corner, my guest is Robert Borden's
32:51CEO of Classical Conversations.
32:54We will continue this conversation when we come back from the break.
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34:11Back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
34:15Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner.
34:17And my guest is Robert Borden, CEO of classical conversations, the world's largest classical
34:24homeschooling organization.
34:27Before we went to the break, we were talking about the Trivium and how our nation has diverged
34:31intentionally away from the classical methodology, how Ronald Reagan observed in the 80s that
34:37had a foreign nation imposed upon us what the government educational system has imposed upon
34:44us as a nation, it would have been viewed as an act of war.
34:47Yet, we have embraced it and we even funded with our own tax dollars much to our own detriment.
34:55Robert, reading your bio, I know that you also are on the academic board of the classical
35:01learning test.
35:02I know this is a standardized test, one that is an option available in contrast to the SAT
35:10the ACT, would you share with the audience here a little bit about the classical learning
35:14test, what it is and why some might prefer to go with it as opposed to more conventionally
35:20known standardized testings for their children as to matriculate from primary education?
35:25Yeah, the classical learning test seeks to destroy the duopoly of the ACT and SAT and those
35:32college exemptions, exams are driving curriculum.
35:36So they're part of the kind of woke agenda that's destroying our school systems.
35:41And so the CLT stepped in and created an entrance exam that shows that students are prepared.
35:48It's an alternative to it.
35:49It's being adopted in many states and even many colleges.
35:53It was a grassroots movement and now it's a national movement so that our academic institutions,
36:00K through 12 education opportunities can be classical and have an option for getting into college more readily. So it's, uh, it's been around now for almost a decade. They actually have K through 12 options now. So you don't have to use those kind of left leaning
36:16End of grade tests either.
36:18So yeah, the classical learning test is a huge step forward
36:21for educational independence and freedom in our country
36:25in a way for colleges to see that these
36:29classically educated students are getting a great education
36:32and give them scholarships and things like that.
36:34So it's Jeremy Tate and the team there
36:37have done a tremendous job.
36:39So with the classical learning test,
36:40as you mentioned, to destroy the duopoly of the act and sat
36:45ACT and SAT. Is this something that is gaining momentum in terms of being a college entrance
36:52exam and our college is recognizing CLT scores to make admission determinations for students
37:01currently?
37:03Yes. So, you know, it started off by just knocking on doors and starting with private
37:07Christian schools. But now our Defense Department, Pete Hagg-Seth, has declared that our Air Force
37:14Academy and our military academies will all take it as part of the entrance exams. I think the state
37:20of Florida is taking it. Texas is working on it. So there's many states are going to be taking it
37:25in their public schools if they aren't already and almost every single private school is taking it.
37:30And so what I say is if the institution doesn't take the CLT, it's probably not where you want
37:35to send your kids. So I think it's a good barometer for parents who are trying to see what college is
37:41out there would be acceptable to keep their kids sane and not have them come out as well
37:48cleftis. The CLT is a good barometer to say that they have education independence mindset
37:55and we'll look at other world views at their university. I want to make sure I put this
38:00information in the show notes, Jeff, the link to classical conversations. Robert, where can
38:05Can people learn more information about the CLT?
38:08Yeah, you can, the website I think is CLTexam.com, but I'm not 100% sure.
38:13Just Google, classical learning test, and you can find out a lot of information about it
38:18there.
38:19All right.
38:20Now, one of the things that we mentioned, and I mentioned this, and this is in your bio,
38:24that classical conversations has grown from supporting homeschoolers in America in about
38:3240 states to now to over 50 countries.
38:36And we were talking before we came on the air that you're seeing amazing growth internationally.
38:43What are some of the countries that classical conversations just happen to be exploding
38:48in right now?
38:50Yeah, before COVID, we had about 3,000 international students.
38:54And now we're going to have about 15,500 or so this fall.
38:58And a good portion of those are in Brazil, South Africa is growing as well.
39:06We just launched in India, we've been in Singapore and Japan, of course, Canada is continuing
39:12to grow as well.
39:13So homeschooling, freedom and independence isn't just popular here in the United States,
39:18it's growing internationally.
39:20And because homeschooling kind of started, its renaissance here in the US, we're able to
39:24to go into these countries and propel them forward faster,
39:28give them a stronger curriculum from the beginning,
39:32and really support them.
39:34We've got, like I said, nearly 30 years of experience
39:37here at classical conversations homeschooling,
39:39and we can pour that experience into them and help them
39:44not make the same mistakes that we made
39:46and just encourage them.
39:48So it's been just a tremendous blessing.
39:50And we're even in countries that are closed down.
39:52homeschooling is not legal in every country,
39:54but we support homeschoolers in many closed countries.
39:58Being a Christian, of course,
39:59we know it's not legal in every country,
40:00but we're supporting Christians
40:02in some of those countries as well.
40:04So God said, go to all the corners of the earth
40:08and preach the gospel.
40:09And that's what we're trying to do
40:10at classical conversations is give a robust Christian education
40:15to every corner of the world.
40:17And maybe Elon Musk will take us to Mars.
40:20Now, you mentioned like some of the nations that we've talked that you mentioned like
40:28India and Brazil and South Africa.
40:32These Japan you mentioned, these nations are clearly very different culturally, linguistically.
40:38What is the driving force for homeschooling to expand in those nations?
40:43Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same thing we saw here is that parents love their kids
40:47and they see that the state run organization up of government schooling is failing them that
40:54they are just becoming cogs in a machine and that they are not holding the same worldview and the
41:00same values that their family holds and so they want to be able to pass those ideas along to their
41:08kids as well as give them a great classical education. So we didn't lose just classical education here
41:14in the US, we lost it all over the world and the modern education problems that we see in
41:19our public schools, foreign countries have those same issues and theirs.
41:25So in terms of growth, are you seeing similar growth here domestically as you're seeing
41:31internationally or is one outpacing the other?
41:34Well, about 90% of our students are in the US.
41:37So, you know, we're growing about 30% a year or so internationally, which has been tremendous.
41:43You know, we used to do that all the time here in the U.S. but as if we've gotten larger, it's
41:47harder to grow at those communities.
41:49So we're still growing here in the U.S., starting new communities.
41:53You know, we would like to see one in every single town so that every single family can
41:57have access to classical conversations.
42:00And if we don't have one in your area, you know, part of our processes to help you get
42:04get one started and if you go to classicalconversations.com,
42:08I will help you get one started today.
42:10Hmm.
42:11Man, it's so interesting how this is just unfolding.
42:18And you mentioned that as following the, the, the,
42:22the schmovid lockdowns, a lot of parents got to see things
42:25for the first time that they hadn't seen before.
42:27And it led to a pretty significant growth
42:31in homeschooling here in America.
42:34but we still don't have about maybe four or five million,
42:39maybe people generally speaking.
42:41I mean, that's not an exact number,
42:42but it's still a very, very small percentage
42:45that is, that our homeschooling here in America.
42:48What do you think it would take for more people
42:51to be willing to take upon themselves as parents
42:55the responsibility for educating their children
42:59in a home-centered fashion?
43:01Yeah, well, I think.
43:05I think too.
43:06And tech now again, technology is great when it works.
43:11But when we have Shalom Jis, it is Shalom Jing.
43:15But I know you're back with the, go ahead, Robert.
43:17Go ahead.
43:18I think you heard the question.
43:20Yeah, no.
43:21Yeah.
43:22So I think part of it's just seeing that it's working.
43:26So I think it's naturally growing is going to continue to grow.
43:28I've seen research that suggests 30% of people are going to be homeschooling within the next
43:3320 or 30 years, one out of every eight Gen Z years,
43:37well, if homeschooled for at least a year.
43:39So it's just becoming a normal part of life.
43:42It'd be helpful if pastors started preaching the Old Testament
43:45and holding the Father's feet to the fire.
43:49You know, it says, here my son, your father's instructions
43:52for sake, not your mother's teaching
43:54for their graceful garland for your head
43:57and it's for your neck.
43:59I was one eight through nine.
44:01You know, it says, you know, in Psalms, Deuteronomy, and Ephesians, you know, they're all say,
44:06parents teach your children.
44:08And so the Lord says that when the father's hearts turn to their kids, he will rescue their
44:14nation.
44:15And I think that's what we need right now.
44:16Yeah.
44:17I mean, you mentioned the Old Testament, the New Testament, you refer to Ephesians.
44:20That was one of the passages the Lord used to wake me up.
44:24Ephesians 6, 4, fathers do not exacerbate your children rather rear them in the nursing
44:28and admonition of the Lord.
44:29And that phrase,
44:30Nurchin admonition comes from the Greek phrase,
44:32pidea and euthisia of the Lord.
44:34And pidea literally means the whole training
44:36of the mind and the morals.
44:37And when I saw that, I was like,
44:38oh, wait a minute, the whole training,
44:41that we've kind of adopted this comfortable bifurcation
44:43to where kind of moral instruction
44:46and academic reciculation,
44:47those things have been bifurcated.
44:49But certain the scriptures,
44:50no, those things would never be bifurcated.
44:51And then I'm saying, oh, as a dad,
44:54God is gonna hold me accountable for this.
44:56Man, that convicted me.
44:58and really gripped me.
45:00And it's one of the things which really leads
45:02into my next question.
45:03My wife and I both, you know, public school, you know,
45:07people know, listen to show, they know,
45:09I'm from the hood in New Orleans, man, but God saved me.
45:12And then when God saved me, and as I was approaching
45:16marriage and even before my wife and I had children,
45:19we spent some time praying really in fasting
45:21about should the Lord bless us with children,
45:24what are we gonna do with them?
45:25You know, and then the scripture, unsurprisingly,
45:27something to say about that. And so we were convicted primarily in recognizing that, man,
45:32it's our jobs as parents to disciple our children. How can we do that effectively if we
45:39allow them to have their minds cultivated, frankly, in a Christ opposing system of instruction?
45:47I felt like we would be working against ourselves. So it was recognized in that scriptural mandate,
45:54frankly from God that convicted us and led us to the decision that we made. What are you finding
45:59in as CEO of classical conversations, some of the reasons why parents domestically and internationally
46:07are choosing to have to pursue a home centered educational process for their families?
46:14Well, I think through COVID and just the rise of the homeschooling here in the US, we've seen a
46:18a lot more people choosing it for academic reasons and not necessarily for the moral spiritual
46:24reasons. But, you know, those are still very important to many families and, you know, they
46:30see that there is a failure of those ideas being perpetrated in public school. And so
46:38they're taking it upon themselves because of our academic success. But they're also
46:43seeing it for moral reasons as well. So it's all sorts of different ideas and internationally,
46:50I would say it's definitely more of the moral reasons that families are homeschooling.
46:58They see the academic success, but they are having the same sort of challenges with the
47:04different identity crisis that we're seeing here internationally as well. So each family has a
47:11a different idea of why they do it. But I think the thing that they all cherish most once they
47:15get into it is that strengthening of the family bond. And they didn't really, you know, necessarily
47:21anticipate that when they first were getting started.
47:24Now, when you make the observation that internationally, people seem to be more inclined to having kind
47:30of a moral development reason for their decision to have a home centered educational process.
47:37Is there any particular observations you would make from that when you see, hmm, it's morality
47:42and other nations around the world, but it's more, you know, academic focus in America
47:46as it was driving that decision.
47:50What do you think could be contributing to that?
47:51And obviously I'm not saying that you are geopolitical expert, but I'm saying, well, just
47:56in your own observations, what do you think it could be underpinning that?
48:00I did stay at holiday in an express last night.
48:02No, I mean, I think it's just that kind of settlers mentality versus the establishment,
48:11right?
48:12So for here in the United States, you know, people had to be, you know, in the 80s and
48:17early 90s, it was more or more reason for homeschooling.
48:20And then they proved that the academics worked and were outperforming, you know, every single
48:25other institution.
48:26And so parents are felt secure in making that leap because they could see the results versus
48:33and other countries, yeah, they might have trouble getting into college still in their
48:37country if they homeschool versus going through the government model.
48:42And so they're having to kind of have that, they know that it's working academically, but
48:48they're having to make a very moral choice there compared to what we have to do here in
48:53the United States just because it's become commonplace, you know.
48:57It used to be that you may have met a homeschooler or now you probably work with one or, you know,
49:03next to one at church or at whatever community group that you're in.
49:06So it's just proliferated here in the United States.
49:10It's a normal choice that people will make.
49:13And so it's moved beyond kind of those fundamental people who are going to make this choice because
49:20they feel like it's a moral imperative, like it was here early on in the United States.
49:25Got it.
49:26ClassicalConversations.com.
49:27Is that the website, Robert?
49:28Yep.
49:29Thanks for watching.

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