The Hamilton Corner

July 25, 2025 · 49:48

Robert Bortins, CEO of Classical Conversations, steps into “The Corner” for the first time.

Culture & Media

Show notes

0:00 - 15:00. Psalms 51:6. God desires that we have truth in the inner man. 15:00 - 31:00. Robert Bortins, CEO of Classical Conversations, steps into “The Corner” for the first time. 31:00 - 48:00. Cultivation of the heart and mind is central to discipleship. or call: 800-326-4543 To donate call : 877-616-2396

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Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

  1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
  2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
  3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio home.
  4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
  5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
  6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
  7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
  8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
  9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
  10. 0:28And now, the Hamilton Corner.
  11. 0:31Good evening, everybody.
  12. 0:34Welcome to the Hamilton Corner.
  13. 0:35Abraham Hamilton III is my name.
  14. 0:37Welcome to the program.
  15. 0:39I am joined by the produced extraordinaire, often imitated,
  16. 0:43never duplicated the real.
  17. 0:46Jay Mac, ladies and gentlemen, and don't forget to check out
  18. 0:49his Mac visions.
  19. 0:51Go ahead and check it out to see what needs to be seen.
  20. 0:55So you can do what needs to be done.
  21. 1:01At this very moment, many of you, if not most of you are making your transition from your part
  22. 1:05time jobs where you generate an income to your full time jobs where you cultivate an outcome.
  23. 1:10And as you do so, I want to remind you to do so with intentionality.
  24. 1:17Understand in the primacy that God places on the family, recognizing that the first human
  25. 1:24institution that he created was in fact the family with marriage at the center.
  26. 1:31did that intentionally to inform how we engage because simply put what goes on in your house
  27. 1:39is far more important than what goes on in the White House. This is stated not to minimize
  28. 1:47the significance of what transpires in the White House mean. This week, as underscored
  29. 1:56just how important that is. But with all that is transpire there, you and I are directly
  30. 2:02accountable and responsible for what happens in our home because we are we have direct influence
  31. 2:09in control of what happens in our homes. And if we do not respond accordingly, if we do not respond
  32. 2:18accordingly, the significance of that of the impact of the results, it's innumerable. You know,
  33. 2:29I've often stated if you look at the metastasizing Leviathan state, it corresponds directly to
  34. 2:36to retrenchments in the family.
  35. 2:41The scripture says if a man doesn't care
  36. 2:42for his own household, he's worse than in an infidel.
  37. 2:46The more families have gone away, for example,
  38. 2:48from caring for our elderly relatives, our parents,
  39. 2:52and things, government amplifies its efforts to do so.
  40. 2:55The more the family structures decimated in the home,
  41. 2:58the nuclear family is decimated,
  42. 3:00the more the welfare state expands.
  43. 3:02It's a direct correlation.
  44. 3:05And for too long, we have not recognized that correlation.
  45. 3:09And those are kind of what I would describe as external metrics.
  46. 3:13But if you look at the internal fiber of our nation,
  47. 3:17as the family is eroded,
  48. 3:21we are also eroding God's primary mission station
  49. 3:25for generational Christ-following fidelity.
  50. 3:32Because the parents are primarily responsible
  51. 3:34according to scripture, for evangelizing,
  52. 3:37catechizing, and discipling our children.
  53. 3:40But as the families continue to be attacked,
  54. 3:43as the families continue to be eroded. No surprise that the spiritual formation of our nation similarly
  55. 3:54is eroded. We have not arrived where we are currently overnight, but we certainly have arrived here
  56. 4:01and do in large part to us, unfortunately, embracing a societally normalized diminishment
  57. 4:09of the significance of the family.
  58. 4:13You know, I know President Trump's slogan was,
  59. 4:14make America great again,
  60. 4:15but I'll just tell you plainly,
  61. 4:16you can't make America great again,
  62. 4:18but I'm making family great again in America.
  63. 4:21And you can't make family great again,
  64. 4:23without God being our central focus,
  65. 4:29not just offering mental assent,
  66. 4:33but recognizing humility and submission
  67. 4:35and engaging in the lifestyle of worship,
  68. 4:37the pinnacle of which is obedience.
  69. 4:40The pinnacle of the lifestyle of worship is obedience.
  70. 4:46So as you're making your transition,
  71. 4:50I want to encourage you to do so recognizing
  72. 4:52what God has done in making the family
  73. 4:54and giving you and I the express privilege
  74. 4:57to be a part of his work.
  75. 4:59To the word of God we go, to the word of God we go.
  76. 5:04Trying to get someone to shout out of this forehead.
  77. 5:06You have my forehead looking like an eight head on this camera,
  78. 5:08what?
  79. 5:09What y'all laughing at?
  80. 5:12to the word of God we go Psalm 51.
  81. 5:15Psalm 51, this, oh man, I've been meditating on this and actually in our family devotional
  82. 5:26and worship time, I talked to my children about this.
  83. 5:32And this is unfortunately a conversation that has not had frequently enough in our society.
  84. 5:36And in Psalm 51, David makes a statement.
  85. 5:42And this is when he is expressing contrition following his horrendous sin with Bathsheba
  86. 5:48and then ultimately the attendant sin with Uriah compounding and amplifying his sin.
  87. 5:54But as he's confessing and repenting, he makes this statement in that expression, Psalm 51 verse
  88. 6:036.
  89. 6:04Psalm 51 verse 6.
  90. 6:11I've Psalm 51 6 and it says this.
  91. 6:20Behold, you desire truth in the innermost being and in the hidden part, you will make me know wisdom.
  92. 6:31The King James says, behold, you desire truth in the inward parts.
  93. 6:38Truth in my innermost being.
  94. 6:41Truth in the inward parts.
  95. 6:43Guys, there is no premium you could place on integrity.
  96. 6:51Obviously we should be people who are truth tellers and people who tell the truth, but
  97. 6:58God as he always does drills down deeper than that truth in the inward parts.
  98. 7:06Very rarely and there are some circumstances that are exceptions to this, but usually when
  99. 7:11people lie and the lies are lies of commission where people are affirmatively offering statements
  100. 7:18to deceive and their eyes of lies of omission to where people intentionally omit information
  101. 7:26for the express purposes of deception.
  102. 7:32People sometimes exaggerate to make themselves look a little bit better than they are.
  103. 7:39Other times people diminish others to make them look and see a little bit worse.
  104. 7:47The God desires of his people, man, is truth in the inward parts.
  105. 7:54Truth in the inward parts.
  106. 7:56And in the hidden part, you will make me know wisdom, wisdom.
  107. 8:05There are people, man, who will lie for money, they'll lie for other things.
  108. 8:12And the thing I want to encourage you with this evening is what do you really see when
  109. 8:22you look in the mirror?
  110. 8:25Who is the real you?
  111. 8:30not only assessing your conduct and external engagement, but what is the attitude and intention
  112. 8:34of your heart? When you put head to pillow at night, is there internal conflict or you
  113. 8:47at P or or or are you at peace? Because truth abounds in you and the inward part. It is
  114. 9:00greatly disappointing. You know, you have this is not like the biggest issue, but you
  115. 9:05You have this issue like with Adam Schiff, the US Senator now from California, US Representative
  116. 9:14previously from California, declaring a residence in Maryland as his primary residence, clearly
  117. 9:23in an effort to achieve mortgage favorability.
  118. 9:28If you know anything about mortgages, you know that you get better rates on your primary
  119. 9:34residence than you do on a secondary residence.
  120. 9:38I'm not even getting into like the criminality of it
  121. 9:42because that is, that's mortgage fraud.
  122. 9:43If you're lying about your residence,
  123. 9:46that's a criminal offense, it's mortgage fraud, no doubt.
  124. 9:50But beyond that, are you comfortable telling lies?
  125. 9:57Is that okay with you?
  126. 10:00Is it a circumstantial analysis, you know?
  127. 10:03Situational ethics.
  128. 10:07I think one of the big problems that we're facing,
  129. 10:09even with this, you know, relatively, not relatively,
  130. 10:12but recent phenomenon of pastors having public falls
  131. 10:18and moral failures.
  132. 10:22One thing that I know is that the God that I serve
  133. 10:28was the God who has revealed himself in scripture.
  134. 10:33Yeshua, Messiah.
  135. 10:37He's a gracious and loving God.
  136. 10:41It's the same gracious and loving God that says
  137. 10:45he chastises those whom he loves.
  138. 10:47correct those whom he loves. I know that there is never any, well let me say it this way,
  139. 10:56I know when there are phenomenons or circumstances where people experience public failures, public
  140. 11:01moral failings, that those public exposures have followed God appealing to these people
  141. 11:09in private before they ever expose publicly. The Lord is appealing to them by his spirit.
  142. 11:14The Lord sends people their way.
  143. 11:16The Lord convicts them personally,
  144. 11:19but nobody else's involvement.
  145. 11:21But what happens is people stave off that conviction.
  146. 11:28You know, you had the recent, you know,
  147. 11:30social media phenomena.
  148. 11:31I saw this when I was in Phoenix last week
  149. 11:34where you had the CEO of the Astronomer Corporation, right?
  150. 11:39He's hugged up with his adulterous bookamaboop
  151. 11:42at the Coldplay concert, right?
  152. 11:45And I just want you to just think about this.
  153. 11:50This man is married to his wife,
  154. 11:53who is not at the Copeland concert.
  155. 11:54This woman who he's hugged up with
  156. 11:56is married to a man who is not at the Copeland concert.
  157. 12:00But they at the concert, you know, they just,
  158. 12:03they swaying and he hugged up,
  159. 12:07looking like, you know, somebody at the junior prom,
  160. 12:11all the thing they're missing is that the loud,
  161. 12:14a student courseage, you know?
  162. 12:17But you know that they know that they were wrong,
  163. 12:21that they were wrong, and you know that they knew
  164. 12:23that they were wrong before they got to the Co-Play concert.
  165. 12:25You know how you know?
  166. 12:27As soon as the camera gets on,
  167. 12:29and what did they do?
  168. 12:30What did they do, Jeff?
  169. 12:31I know you saw this video.
  170. 12:33Soon as, and look, it's a couple's cam.
  171. 12:36So think about this.
  172. 12:37It ain't like that surprise that there's a couple's cam.
  173. 12:40They just don't expect the camera to come on them.
  174. 12:43Co-Play, they're probably,
  175. 12:44Yeah, yeah, everybody welcome tonight.
  176. 12:47Woo hoo, beautiful people in the audience.
  177. 12:49I see you out there and then the camera is swirling
  178. 12:52and searching, you know?
  179. 12:53Then the camera hits them.
  180. 12:56What is the first thing old boy does?
  181. 13:01He's under the table.
  182. 13:04He ducks, he's knocking, trying to duck out of the camera.
  183. 13:07What is the first thing old girl does?
  184. 13:08She turns.
  185. 13:13If there was any inclination that them being hugged up
  186. 13:16at the Coldplay concert wasn't a problem,
  187. 13:18they never would have reacted that way.
  188. 13:20But notice, this is what I'm driving at.
  189. 13:23Notice it was not until the camera was focused on them.
  190. 13:31Did their physical posture acknowledge
  191. 13:33what they already knew inside?
  192. 13:36You get what I'm saying?
  193. 13:38That was a public demonstration of a lack of truth
  194. 13:41in the inward parts because the acknowledgement
  195. 13:47of the truth required external compulsion,
  196. 13:51the Coldplay concert camera.
  197. 13:53And then you have all the intended circumstances.
  198. 13:55Now they wanna face divorce,
  199. 13:57You know, the astronomer, CEO's wife is saying she's going back to her main, all this other
  200. 14:03kind of stuff.
  201. 14:04All that stuff's subsequent.
  202. 14:06But if there was truth in the inward parts, you cannot tell me that was the first time that
  203. 14:10they considered, man, you know what we're doing?
  204. 14:12We're wrong.
  205. 14:13We file out here.
  206. 14:16I want you to consider that.
  207. 14:18They acknowledged what they were doing was wrong only with external compulsion.
  208. 14:24But truth in the inward parts would have you recognize it initially.
  209. 14:31I'm not talking about just an egregious examples like adulterous affairs.
  210. 14:35I'm talking about integrity, man.
  211. 14:39We need a revival of integrity, but I know that's only going to come with an outpouring
  212. 14:47of God's spirit.
  213. 14:48But as for us who are in this audience, man, truth in the inward parts, that is what God
  214. 14:55desires.
  215. 15:01A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker, the Gospel of Matthew chapter 28 starting in
  216. 15:07verse 18, it tells us these words.
  217. 15:09And Jesus came and spoke to them saying,
  218. 15:11all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
  219. 15:15Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
  220. 15:17baptizing them in the name of the Father
  221. 15:19and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
  222. 15:22Teaching them to observe all things
  223. 15:23that I've commanded you and lo, I'm with you always,
  224. 15:26even to the end of the age, amen.
  225. 15:29That contains what we call the great commission.
  226. 15:32God calls us to be a disciple and to make disciples.
  227. 15:36and that's a command God lays before us each and every day.
  228. 15:39Every day is a day for us to follow Jesus Christ
  229. 15:42and to be involved in the work of helping
  230. 15:44and teaching and encouraging others
  231. 15:45to follow Jesus Christ as well.
  232. 15:48Ask someone how you can pray for them.
  233. 15:50Encourage someone to read three chapters
  234. 15:53in the Bible every day.
  235. 15:54Pray for God to help you to both be a faithful disciple
  236. 15:57and to make disciples as well.
  237. 16:06Shiting light into the darkness,
  238. 16:08this is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
  239. 16:12Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner, Abraham Hamilton,
  240. 16:14the third with you.
  241. 16:15Thank you for tuning into the program.
  242. 16:18I'm delighted to have on the program with me
  243. 16:20the CEO of Classical Conversations,
  244. 16:24Mr. Robert Bortons.
  245. 16:28Classical Conversations is an organization,
  246. 16:31a ministry that includes, I would say,
  247. 16:33an educational methodology that has grown
  248. 16:35from supporting homeschoolers in about 40 states
  249. 16:38to supporting homeschoolers in over 50 countries.
  250. 16:43You heard that 50 countries
  251. 16:45and has become the world's largest
  252. 16:48classical homeschooling organization
  253. 16:50under the guidance of its CEO, Robert Borden.
  254. 16:52Mr. Borden, thank you for joining me here
  255. 16:54on the Hamilton Corner.
  256. 16:58Thanks for having me.
  257. 16:58I'm excited to be here and God is good.
  258. 17:01Amen, amen, God is good.
  259. 17:05I wanna start simply by asking you
  260. 17:08to share with the audience here.
  261. 17:09What is classical conversations?
  262. 17:14Yeah, so classical conversations
  263. 17:16was started my family's basement in 1997
  264. 17:19to help people at homeschool through high school
  265. 17:21and give their children a classical Christian education.
  266. 17:26And so we've done that for almost, I guess, 28 years now.
  267. 17:31We curate curriculum, we provide services
  268. 17:34and we equip parents to build flourishing homeschool
  269. 17:37communities. And kind of what we do that's different in the marketplace of homeschooling is we create
  270. 17:44a local community where your family can go with other families typically around, you know, one of
  271. 17:50your 30 families are in a community. And once a week have accountability, do things like public
  272. 17:56speaking, you know, science, do things like debate, all sorts of different activities that you can't
  273. 18:04really do alone. So we like to call it home-centered education more than homeschooling because once you
  274. 18:09kind of get into it, you know, you're very rarely at home with your kids because you're out doing all
  275. 18:14sorts of things. And so what classical conversations does is use that classical methodology that aligns
  276. 18:21kind of with brain development the way that God created us and that accountability of community.
  277. 18:27I like how you say that home-centered education people who know in this audience that I'm a
  278. 18:33I'm a homeschooled dad.
  279. 18:35We were talking before we came on the air,
  280. 18:38that I heard you speak last year at the HSLDA
  281. 18:41National Leaders Conference.
  282. 18:42I'm on the board at HSLDA,
  283. 18:44and I'm quite familiar with classical methodology,
  284. 18:47and I get lots of questions about homeschooling,
  285. 18:50and classical conversations is a tremendous option
  286. 18:53for home-centered education,
  287. 18:55because it has, in my view,
  288. 18:56kind of a great mix of the home being the center of it,
  289. 18:59but you also build or participate in a community
  290. 19:04that is similarly focused.
  291. 19:06So really you end up having families helping each other out
  292. 19:09in their efforts to really disciple their children
  293. 19:11in including the cultivation of their minds.
  294. 19:15How would you describe the kind of community develop aspect
  295. 19:19that is unique to classical conversations?
  296. 19:23Yeah, well the Bible says, you know, three strains.
  297. 19:29Three strains?
  298. 19:31I'm waiting for the rest of the strains.
  299. 19:33for technology. It's amazing when it works.
  300. 19:36And when it's, oh no, you're back with us.
  301. 19:39Okay, I can hear you were saying the Bible says three strands.
  302. 19:42That's the last thing we heard.
  303. 19:43Okay, the Bible says three strands are not easily broken.
  304. 19:47And so a community helps us lift each other up, right?
  305. 19:51If we're on a long journey of education,
  306. 19:53you're not always gonna have a great day.
  307. 19:55And so you need each other.
  308. 19:57And so it's classical conversations.
  309. 20:00You have the parents.
  310. 20:01You have those tutors that are helping the parents,
  311. 20:03and then you've got classical conversations
  312. 20:06that trying to find the best materials,
  313. 20:08the best way to help you out.
  314. 20:10We have message boards, we have academic advisors,
  315. 20:13so just a group of people helping each other.
  316. 20:16It's a truly grassroots movement.
  317. 20:19It's just older women supporting younger women,
  318. 20:23teaching them what to do.
  319. 20:25So it's really designed a lot of what we see in the Bible
  320. 20:29and that that community aspect is a positive peer pressure
  321. 20:33and it's friends, not just for the kids,
  322. 20:35but for the parents because when you're doing something hard,
  323. 20:38homeschooling is hard, raising children is hard, right?
  324. 20:40Let's not lie to people.
  325. 20:42It is difficult.
  326. 20:43And when we can do it together,
  327. 20:44we can lift each other up on those tough days
  328. 20:47and support each other.
  329. 20:48So it really is a community.
  330. 20:50And you know, you always get stories every single year
  331. 20:52that bring me to tears of, you know, someone getting sick
  332. 20:54or some tragedy happening in that classical conversations
  333. 20:58community, stepping around that person or that family, making sure that they have everything
  334. 21:03they need.
  335. 21:04I want to make sure we get this in and I'll do it again later in the show, but where can
  336. 21:08people go to find out more information about classical conversations to consider whether
  337. 21:12or not it's an option that would fit their family well?
  338. 21:15Yeah, of course, we're on all the social medias, but classicalconversations.com.
  339. 21:20And if you put in your zip code, we're actually going to hook you up with a local homeschooling
  340. 21:25parent that will answer any questions for you.
  341. 21:28It'll be someone probably within 30 minutes of your house, maybe even in your same neighborhood
  342. 21:33that will love to talk to you about homeschooling and classical education.
  343. 21:37I want to definitely get to classical education, but I want to take a few minutes and just ask
  344. 21:42you, you refer to God being good, how the Bible serves as an anchor for the classical
  345. 21:47conversations methodology in terms of instruction with a home-centered pedagogical development.
  346. 21:55You're CEO now, you said you started the classical conversations your family did in 97 in your
  347. 22:00basement.
  348. 22:02How did you come to faith in Christ Jesus?
  349. 22:05Yeah, I mean, I think being homeschooled, I would say I almost know Jesus from the beginning.
  350. 22:13When I was five or six, I remember just being in church and hearing a sermon in a Seattle,
  351. 22:19Washington area where we were living at that time.
  352. 22:21And my mom had recently said that she believed in Christ.
  353. 22:27And my dad wasn't there yet.
  354. 22:30But just from that time forward,
  355. 22:32I had always just kind of believed
  356. 22:34there wasn't any particular moment that I can remember,
  357. 22:38but just knowing God from being very young.
  358. 22:41And that doesn't mean, I mean, there's plenty of times,
  359. 22:44especially as a young adult trying to find my own way
  360. 22:47and testing the scriptures to see if they were real
  361. 22:51and just realizing that the world
  362. 22:53did not have anything to offer us.
  363. 22:54And so I would say when I was a 27 years old,
  364. 22:59I rededicated my life to Christ
  365. 23:02and just have not turned to the left or right since then.
  366. 23:08And how did that kind of
  367. 23:12roil over into you becoming CEO of classical conversations?
  368. 23:19Yeah, I mean, I always loved being homeschooled.
  369. 23:21I always tell people if classical conversations didn't exist,
  370. 23:24I would still be homeschooling my own children.
  371. 23:27But having that experience of being homeschooled myself,
  372. 23:31being a parent now is a different worldview,
  373. 23:36a different perspective on that whole endeavor,
  374. 23:38but I just loved being homeschooled.
  375. 23:40I had an industrial engineering degree
  376. 23:42from Clemson University.
  377. 23:44I did that.
  378. 23:46I worked for some Fortune 500 companies,
  379. 23:48I worked my way up the corporate ladder
  380. 23:49and just as classical conversations was growing,
  381. 23:53my mom needed more help and support
  382. 23:55and I just felt like God was saying,
  383. 23:58it was time to come home and help her out
  384. 24:02and to help other people see that homeschooling
  385. 24:05doesn't have to be scary,
  386. 24:06doesn't have to be confusing.
  387. 24:09And so I came on board and started helping out
  388. 24:13with our marketing department
  389. 24:14and some of our different services
  390. 24:16testing service at the time and just kind of did a transition with my mom over a couple
  391. 24:22years to take over day-to-day operations of the organization.
  392. 24:25Now, I know classical conversations is kind of in the word classical.
  393. 24:31We used to understand in America what the classical educational methodology included.
  394. 24:37Would you just help our audience here understand a bit what is classical education?
  395. 24:43Yeah, so there's kind of two perspectives of classical education.
  396. 24:48The first one is just the methodology.
  397. 24:50And so you might have remembered or even when you're younger heard of grammar schools,
  398. 24:54now they're called elementary schools, but grammar schools basically means it's really
  399. 25:00the art of naming, attending, memorizing, expressing, and storytelling, and children love all of
  400. 25:07those things.
  401. 25:08And it's just they memorize copious amounts of information.
  402. 25:11So they memorize things like the periodic table, the multiplication tables.
  403. 25:16And those things sound boring to adults, but they, kids enjoy it and you can do it so it's
  404. 25:21a lot of fun by playing games and stomping around and doing jumping jacks and putting them
  405. 25:27to songs.
  406. 25:28And so the first step of classical education is just getting in a lot of knowledge inside
  407. 25:33of the children's brains.
  408. 25:35They don't necessarily understand it yet.
  409. 25:37That's when that next phase called the dialectic or logic stage.
  410. 25:43That's typically kind of in middle school or early high school
  411. 25:46where they've got this amazing amount of information
  412. 25:48and they're starting to put it together.
  413. 25:50They're starting to see how.
  414. 25:54Oh, we pause again.
  415. 25:56So the grammar stage is basically
  416. 25:59like the informational download stage, if you will, right?
  417. 26:05The informational download and we have,
  418. 26:08I think we have Robert back.
  419. 26:10You back with us, Robert?
  420. 26:12Yeah, I'm not seeing the issues on my end.
  421. 26:15Yeah, I don't, man.
  422. 26:16I don't know what's going on,
  423. 26:17but you were explaining first the grammar stage
  424. 26:20of the classical educational model.
  425. 26:24And I just kind of summarized,
  426. 26:26it's like the informational download stage.
  427. 26:28It's just information being downloaded,
  428. 26:30information being input,
  429. 26:32and then you are about to transition into the dialectic
  430. 26:34or the logic stage of the classical method org.
  431. 26:38and we'll get to it, but the Latin trivia, if you will.
  432. 26:40But go ahead.
  433. 26:42Yeah, the trivia.
  434. 26:43Yep, so the dialectics, the second stage,
  435. 26:45and it's really where you're putting these ideas together
  436. 26:47and synthesizing them and understanding them.
  437. 26:49And then the final stage is the rhetoric stage
  438. 26:52where you can explain it to other people.
  439. 26:54And so you're doing things like debate and mock trial
  440. 26:58and writing papers and doing all those sorts of things.
  441. 27:02And so that's the stage of learning.
  442. 27:05Those three stages of learning,
  443. 27:06you go through when you learn anything.
  444. 27:09So even as an adult, if you want to say,
  445. 27:11learn how to change the oil in your car,
  446. 27:14you got to know the grammar of changing your oil
  447. 27:17and the dialectic and the rhetoric
  448. 27:18is actually doing it.
  449. 27:20And so you do that.
  450. 27:22And then the other thing of the classical method
  451. 27:23is you go read original source documents.
  452. 27:26So you don't read some woke professors' interpretation
  453. 27:30of the Federalist Papers.
  454. 27:32You read the Federalist Papers and see what they're actually
  455. 27:34trying to say as they are creating our government.
  456. 27:37So you go read our Constitution
  457. 27:39and someone else's Constitution and you say,
  458. 27:41okay, what other countries' Constitution say?
  459. 27:44What does ours say?
  460. 27:45Why is ours stood the test of time
  461. 27:49and things of that nature?
  462. 27:50So you go read like Plato
  463. 27:53and you go study Latin or Greek.
  464. 27:55And so you're trying to see what have the best minds
  465. 27:58in human history come up with,
  466. 28:00what is stood the test of time, both good and bad ideas?
  467. 28:03So yeah, we'll read Karl Marx and understand why so many communist countries have had pain
  468. 28:09and suffering and all the terrible things that go along with it so that we understand the
  469. 28:15world around us.
  470. 28:16So if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it all about reading what the
  471. 28:22best minds have offered over the last 3,000 years.
  472. 28:25Now this is, and you may be able to help our audience understand that, understand this,
  473. 28:30The classical method was pretty much the predominant method of instruction that we had in America
  474. 28:36before there was really this mainstreaming of a government educational complex.
  475. 28:43This is the way our founders were trained.
  476. 28:45This is the way, for example, Thomas Jefferson was trained.
  477. 28:48George Washington, you go down the whole list.
  478. 28:51Am I articulating that accurately, that this classical understanding and this approach to
  479. 28:56education was the way we did things in America since our founding up until a relatively recent,
  480. 29:03the recent past. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. So as a founding of America, roughly 90% of people
  481. 29:10were literate and I only had the Bible, some readers and the local newspaper. And so
  482. 29:18you didn't need the government funding education. That actually came in after the Napoleonic wars
  483. 29:25from the country of Prussia. So our truancy laws and public education systems are only about 200
  484. 29:34years old. So for the first 50 to almost 100 years, depending on what state you are in,
  485. 29:41everything was classical education. But when Prussia lost the Napoleonic Wars,
  486. 29:47they wanted to have a fighting force and someone who would obey their king. And so they created
  487. 29:54public education and then people like Horace Mann wanted to bring that sort of education
  488. 30:01to the United States and they did and installed our public education system.
  489. 30:08And people will remember in our audience here Horace Mann is the wonderful gentleman who
  490. 30:13I've referred to as quote in his lectures on education who said quote we view those parents
  491. 30:20who have given children to our public education system
  492. 30:27as having given hostages to our cause.
  493. 30:30In quote, Horace Mann is the one who said that,
  494. 30:32that he viewed the parents who had surrendered their children
  495. 30:35to his Prussian informed educational approach,
  496. 30:39diverging from a classical method
  497. 30:41that was anchored in scripture, I would argue frankly,
  498. 30:44as having given hostages to their cause,
  499. 30:46which I've said, I don't view anybody who would say
  500. 30:48that my children are hostages as someone who's trying to help me.
  501. 30:52Is it that horse man you're talking about, Robert?
  502. 30:55Yeah, absolutely.
  503. 30:56The one that has about 1,000 public schools named after him.
  504. 30:59And I think top baseball cards just released a baseball card
  505. 31:04with his face on it as a hero of American society.
  506. 31:07So the guy who's reason why we have 34% literacy rate
  507. 31:13in the United States and why Jay Leno and people like that
  508. 31:17can make fun of a man on a street, episodes of asking people, you know, who's the governor
  509. 31:24of their state or what city's the capital of the United States or why we send money to
  510. 31:30foreign countries that no one can point onto on a map that horseman.
  511. 31:34Yes.
  512. 31:35So the three components, the grammar, diaglactic or the logic phase of the classical trivia
  513. 31:44and the rhetoric phase and accompanied with the original source
  514. 31:49reading
  515. 31:52all of that was jettison'd would you say
  516. 31:55um that was an accidental phenomenon of transpartum country would you say that was something that occurred intentionally?
  517. 32:00Oh, it was absolutely intentional. Um, you can go back and read their writings what they were planning to do
  518. 32:06and quite frankly it worked. I mean even Ronald Reagan in 1980 and I think most people would say oh our education system wasn't that bad in 1980
  519. 32:13He said if a foreign adversary put our education system, public education system on our country,
  520. 32:20we would declare it an act of war.
  521. 32:23And it's only gotten worse since then.
  522. 32:27And we all recognize that during COVID and why the number of homeschoolers spiked from roughly
  523. 32:32two million to somewhere around four million depending on whose numbers you want to look
  524. 32:37at.
  525. 32:38But yeah, no, it was intentional.
  526. 32:40It was gradual.
  527. 32:42And now we are tasting the bitter fruit of it as a society.
  528. 32:47You listen to the Hamilton Corner or watch the Hamilton Corner, my guest is Robert Borden's
  529. 32:51CEO of Classical Conversations.
  530. 32:54We will continue this conversation when we come back from the break.
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  551. 34:11Back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
  552. 34:15Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner.
  553. 34:17And my guest is Robert Borden, CEO of classical conversations, the world's largest classical
  554. 34:24homeschooling organization.
  555. 34:27Before we went to the break, we were talking about the Trivium and how our nation has diverged
  556. 34:31intentionally away from the classical methodology, how Ronald Reagan observed in the 80s that
  557. 34:37had a foreign nation imposed upon us what the government educational system has imposed upon
  558. 34:44us as a nation, it would have been viewed as an act of war.
  559. 34:47Yet, we have embraced it and we even funded with our own tax dollars much to our own detriment.
  560. 34:55Robert, reading your bio, I know that you also are on the academic board of the classical
  561. 35:01learning test.
  562. 35:02I know this is a standardized test, one that is an option available in contrast to the SAT
  563. 35:10the ACT, would you share with the audience here a little bit about the classical learning
  564. 35:14test, what it is and why some might prefer to go with it as opposed to more conventionally
  565. 35:20known standardized testings for their children as to matriculate from primary education?
  566. 35:25Yeah, the classical learning test seeks to destroy the duopoly of the ACT and SAT and those
  567. 35:32college exemptions, exams are driving curriculum.
  568. 35:36So they're part of the kind of woke agenda that's destroying our school systems.
  569. 35:41And so the CLT stepped in and created an entrance exam that shows that students are prepared.
  570. 35:48It's an alternative to it.
  571. 35:49It's being adopted in many states and even many colleges.
  572. 35:53It was a grassroots movement and now it's a national movement so that our academic institutions,
  573. 36:00K through 12 education opportunities can be classical and have an option for getting into college more readily. So it's, uh, it's been around now for almost a decade. They actually have K through 12 options now. So you don't have to use those kind of left leaning
  574. 36:16End of grade tests either.
  575. 36:18So yeah, the classical learning test is a huge step forward
  576. 36:21for educational independence and freedom in our country
  577. 36:25in a way for colleges to see that these
  578. 36:29classically educated students are getting a great education
  579. 36:32and give them scholarships and things like that.
  580. 36:34So it's Jeremy Tate and the team there
  581. 36:37have done a tremendous job.
  582. 36:39So with the classical learning test,
  583. 36:40as you mentioned, to destroy the duopoly of the act and sat
  584. 36:45ACT and SAT. Is this something that is gaining momentum in terms of being a college entrance
  585. 36:52exam and our college is recognizing CLT scores to make admission determinations for students
  586. 37:01currently?
  587. 37:03Yes. So, you know, it started off by just knocking on doors and starting with private
  588. 37:07Christian schools. But now our Defense Department, Pete Hagg-Seth, has declared that our Air Force
  589. 37:14Academy and our military academies will all take it as part of the entrance exams. I think the state
  590. 37:20of Florida is taking it. Texas is working on it. So there's many states are going to be taking it
  591. 37:25in their public schools if they aren't already and almost every single private school is taking it.
  592. 37:30And so what I say is if the institution doesn't take the CLT, it's probably not where you want
  593. 37:35to send your kids. So I think it's a good barometer for parents who are trying to see what college is
  594. 37:41out there would be acceptable to keep their kids sane and not have them come out as well
  595. 37:48cleftis. The CLT is a good barometer to say that they have education independence mindset
  596. 37:55and we'll look at other world views at their university. I want to make sure I put this
  597. 38:00information in the show notes, Jeff, the link to classical conversations. Robert, where can
  598. 38:05Can people learn more information about the CLT?
  599. 38:08Yeah, you can, the website I think is CLTexam.com, but I'm not 100% sure.
  600. 38:13Just Google, classical learning test, and you can find out a lot of information about it
  601. 38:18there.
  602. 38:19All right.
  603. 38:20Now, one of the things that we mentioned, and I mentioned this, and this is in your bio,
  604. 38:24that classical conversations has grown from supporting homeschoolers in America in about
  605. 38:3240 states to now to over 50 countries.
  606. 38:36And we were talking before we came on the air that you're seeing amazing growth internationally.
  607. 38:43What are some of the countries that classical conversations just happen to be exploding
  608. 38:48in right now?
  609. 38:50Yeah, before COVID, we had about 3,000 international students.
  610. 38:54And now we're going to have about 15,500 or so this fall.
  611. 38:58And a good portion of those are in Brazil, South Africa is growing as well.
  612. 39:06We just launched in India, we've been in Singapore and Japan, of course, Canada is continuing
  613. 39:12to grow as well.
  614. 39:13So homeschooling, freedom and independence isn't just popular here in the United States,
  615. 39:18it's growing internationally.
  616. 39:20And because homeschooling kind of started, its renaissance here in the US, we're able to
  617. 39:24to go into these countries and propel them forward faster,
  618. 39:28give them a stronger curriculum from the beginning,
  619. 39:32and really support them.
  620. 39:34We've got, like I said, nearly 30 years of experience
  621. 39:37here at classical conversations homeschooling,
  622. 39:39and we can pour that experience into them and help them
  623. 39:44not make the same mistakes that we made
  624. 39:46and just encourage them.
  625. 39:48So it's been just a tremendous blessing.
  626. 39:50And we're even in countries that are closed down.
  627. 39:52homeschooling is not legal in every country,
  628. 39:54but we support homeschoolers in many closed countries.
  629. 39:58Being a Christian, of course,
  630. 39:59we know it's not legal in every country,
  631. 40:00but we're supporting Christians
  632. 40:02in some of those countries as well.
  633. 40:04So God said, go to all the corners of the earth
  634. 40:08and preach the gospel.
  635. 40:09And that's what we're trying to do
  636. 40:10at classical conversations is give a robust Christian education
  637. 40:15to every corner of the world.
  638. 40:17And maybe Elon Musk will take us to Mars.
  639. 40:20Now, you mentioned like some of the nations that we've talked that you mentioned like
  640. 40:28India and Brazil and South Africa.
  641. 40:32These Japan you mentioned, these nations are clearly very different culturally, linguistically.
  642. 40:38What is the driving force for homeschooling to expand in those nations?
  643. 40:43Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same thing we saw here is that parents love their kids
  644. 40:47and they see that the state run organization up of government schooling is failing them that
  645. 40:54they are just becoming cogs in a machine and that they are not holding the same worldview and the
  646. 41:00same values that their family holds and so they want to be able to pass those ideas along to their
  647. 41:08kids as well as give them a great classical education. So we didn't lose just classical education here
  648. 41:14in the US, we lost it all over the world and the modern education problems that we see in
  649. 41:19our public schools, foreign countries have those same issues and theirs.
  650. 41:25So in terms of growth, are you seeing similar growth here domestically as you're seeing
  651. 41:31internationally or is one outpacing the other?
  652. 41:34Well, about 90% of our students are in the US.
  653. 41:37So, you know, we're growing about 30% a year or so internationally, which has been tremendous.
  654. 41:43You know, we used to do that all the time here in the U.S. but as if we've gotten larger, it's
  655. 41:47harder to grow at those communities.
  656. 41:49So we're still growing here in the U.S., starting new communities.
  657. 41:53You know, we would like to see one in every single town so that every single family can
  658. 41:57have access to classical conversations.
  659. 42:00And if we don't have one in your area, you know, part of our processes to help you get
  660. 42:04get one started and if you go to classicalconversations.com,
  661. 42:08I will help you get one started today.
  662. 42:10Hmm.
  663. 42:11Man, it's so interesting how this is just unfolding.
  664. 42:18And you mentioned that as following the, the, the,
  665. 42:22the schmovid lockdowns, a lot of parents got to see things
  666. 42:25for the first time that they hadn't seen before.
  667. 42:27And it led to a pretty significant growth
  668. 42:31in homeschooling here in America.
  669. 42:34but we still don't have about maybe four or five million,
  670. 42:39maybe people generally speaking.
  671. 42:41I mean, that's not an exact number,
  672. 42:42but it's still a very, very small percentage
  673. 42:45that is, that our homeschooling here in America.
  674. 42:48What do you think it would take for more people
  675. 42:51to be willing to take upon themselves as parents
  676. 42:55the responsibility for educating their children
  677. 42:59in a home-centered fashion?
  678. 43:01Yeah, well, I think.
  679. 43:05I think too.
  680. 43:06And tech now again, technology is great when it works.
  681. 43:11But when we have Shalom Jis, it is Shalom Jing.
  682. 43:15But I know you're back with the, go ahead, Robert.
  683. 43:17Go ahead.
  684. 43:18I think you heard the question.
  685. 43:20Yeah, no.
  686. 43:21Yeah.
  687. 43:22So I think part of it's just seeing that it's working.
  688. 43:26So I think it's naturally growing is going to continue to grow.
  689. 43:28I've seen research that suggests 30% of people are going to be homeschooling within the next
  690. 43:3320 or 30 years, one out of every eight Gen Z years,
  691. 43:37well, if homeschooled for at least a year.
  692. 43:39So it's just becoming a normal part of life.
  693. 43:42It'd be helpful if pastors started preaching the Old Testament
  694. 43:45and holding the Father's feet to the fire.
  695. 43:49You know, it says, here my son, your father's instructions
  696. 43:52for sake, not your mother's teaching
  697. 43:54for their graceful garland for your head
  698. 43:57and it's for your neck.
  699. 43:59I was one eight through nine.
  700. 44:01You know, it says, you know, in Psalms, Deuteronomy, and Ephesians, you know, they're all say,
  701. 44:06parents teach your children.
  702. 44:08And so the Lord says that when the father's hearts turn to their kids, he will rescue their
  703. 44:14nation.
  704. 44:15And I think that's what we need right now.
  705. 44:16Yeah.
  706. 44:17I mean, you mentioned the Old Testament, the New Testament, you refer to Ephesians.
  707. 44:20That was one of the passages the Lord used to wake me up.
  708. 44:24Ephesians 6, 4, fathers do not exacerbate your children rather rear them in the nursing
  709. 44:28and admonition of the Lord.
  710. 44:29And that phrase,
  711. 44:30Nurchin admonition comes from the Greek phrase,
  712. 44:32pidea and euthisia of the Lord.
  713. 44:34And pidea literally means the whole training
  714. 44:36of the mind and the morals.
  715. 44:37And when I saw that, I was like,
  716. 44:38oh, wait a minute, the whole training,
  717. 44:41that we've kind of adopted this comfortable bifurcation
  718. 44:43to where kind of moral instruction
  719. 44:46and academic reciculation,
  720. 44:47those things have been bifurcated.
  721. 44:49But certain the scriptures,
  722. 44:50no, those things would never be bifurcated.
  723. 44:51And then I'm saying, oh, as a dad,
  724. 44:54God is gonna hold me accountable for this.
  725. 44:56Man, that convicted me.
  726. 44:58and really gripped me.
  727. 45:00And it's one of the things which really leads
  728. 45:02into my next question.
  729. 45:03My wife and I both, you know, public school, you know,
  730. 45:07people know, listen to show, they know,
  731. 45:09I'm from the hood in New Orleans, man, but God saved me.
  732. 45:12And then when God saved me, and as I was approaching
  733. 45:16marriage and even before my wife and I had children,
  734. 45:19we spent some time praying really in fasting
  735. 45:21about should the Lord bless us with children,
  736. 45:24what are we gonna do with them?
  737. 45:25You know, and then the scripture, unsurprisingly,
  738. 45:27something to say about that. And so we were convicted primarily in recognizing that, man,
  739. 45:32it's our jobs as parents to disciple our children. How can we do that effectively if we
  740. 45:39allow them to have their minds cultivated, frankly, in a Christ opposing system of instruction?
  741. 45:47I felt like we would be working against ourselves. So it was recognized in that scriptural mandate,
  742. 45:54frankly from God that convicted us and led us to the decision that we made. What are you finding
  743. 45:59in as CEO of classical conversations, some of the reasons why parents domestically and internationally
  744. 46:07are choosing to have to pursue a home centered educational process for their families?
  745. 46:14Well, I think through COVID and just the rise of the homeschooling here in the US, we've seen a
  746. 46:18a lot more people choosing it for academic reasons and not necessarily for the moral spiritual
  747. 46:24reasons. But, you know, those are still very important to many families and, you know, they
  748. 46:30see that there is a failure of those ideas being perpetrated in public school. And so
  749. 46:38they're taking it upon themselves because of our academic success. But they're also
  750. 46:43seeing it for moral reasons as well. So it's all sorts of different ideas and internationally,
  751. 46:50I would say it's definitely more of the moral reasons that families are homeschooling.
  752. 46:58They see the academic success, but they are having the same sort of challenges with the
  753. 47:04different identity crisis that we're seeing here internationally as well. So each family has a
  754. 47:11a different idea of why they do it. But I think the thing that they all cherish most once they
  755. 47:15get into it is that strengthening of the family bond. And they didn't really, you know, necessarily
  756. 47:21anticipate that when they first were getting started.
  757. 47:24Now, when you make the observation that internationally, people seem to be more inclined to having kind
  758. 47:30of a moral development reason for their decision to have a home centered educational process.
  759. 47:37Is there any particular observations you would make from that when you see, hmm, it's morality
  760. 47:42and other nations around the world, but it's more, you know, academic focus in America
  761. 47:46as it was driving that decision.
  762. 47:50What do you think could be contributing to that?
  763. 47:51And obviously I'm not saying that you are geopolitical expert, but I'm saying, well, just
  764. 47:56in your own observations, what do you think it could be underpinning that?
  765. 48:00I did stay at holiday in an express last night.
  766. 48:02No, I mean, I think it's just that kind of settlers mentality versus the establishment,
  767. 48:11right?
  768. 48:12So for here in the United States, you know, people had to be, you know, in the 80s and
  769. 48:17early 90s, it was more or more reason for homeschooling.
  770. 48:20And then they proved that the academics worked and were outperforming, you know, every single
  771. 48:25other institution.
  772. 48:26And so parents are felt secure in making that leap because they could see the results versus
  773. 48:33and other countries, yeah, they might have trouble getting into college still in their
  774. 48:37country if they homeschool versus going through the government model.
  775. 48:42And so they're having to kind of have that, they know that it's working academically, but
  776. 48:48they're having to make a very moral choice there compared to what we have to do here in
  777. 48:53the United States just because it's become commonplace, you know.
  778. 48:57It used to be that you may have met a homeschooler or now you probably work with one or, you know,
  779. 49:03next to one at church or at whatever community group that you're in.
  780. 49:06So it's just proliferated here in the United States.
  781. 49:10It's a normal choice that people will make.
  782. 49:13And so it's moved beyond kind of those fundamental people who are going to make this choice because
  783. 49:20they feel like it's a moral imperative, like it was here early on in the United States.
  784. 49:25Got it.
  785. 49:26ClassicalConversations.com.
  786. 49:27Is that the website, Robert?
  787. 49:28Yep.
  788. 49:29Thanks for watching.

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