Who is Jesus? Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Pastor Tony Cooke, of Tony Cooke Ministries to discuss the role of the Church.

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:01Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:07This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:16Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:19And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:21God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:27Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:29and now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:33Well, good evening America and welcome to the Hamilton Corner
12. 0:36on the American Family Radio Network, Alex McFarland here.
13. 0:39I've got the great honor of sitting in for attorney, pastor,
14. 0:43journalist, broadcaster Abe Hamilton, the third
15. 0:46who is traveling today.
16. 0:48And we've got a great show.
17. 0:49We're going to talk about Jesus and who is Jesus
18. 0:53and really the role of the church in the 21st century.
19. 0:57But as we get into the program, and before I introduce a very valued colleague and special guest,
20. 1:04I want to refer you to last night's program and encourage you, if you didn't hear it live,
21. 1:10go back and listen if you would, AFR.NET, the show from yesterday which would have been
22. 1:16I suppose February 4th. My guest was Jay Warner Wallace, Jim Wallace,
23. 1:21and he is a former Los Angeles cold case homicide detective.
24. 1:27He applied his crime-solving skills to a critical look at the Bible, and he became a
25. 1:33born-again believer.
26. 1:34And he's written a couple of really great apologetics books.
27. 1:37And I had him on yesterday, and we took calls.
28. 1:40Some of the questions were just fantastic about, you know, can we trust the Bible?
29. 1:45And yes, we can.
30. 1:47And how do we defend the faith?
31. 1:49And I had Jim Wallace on yesterday because he and I were leading a seminar in August at
32. 1:54the Billy Graham Center in Western North Carolina. And I just, I implore, most people
33. 2:00listening probably are Christians and if so you're in church I hope you are. Maybe
34. 2:05you're a pastor, a Sunday school leader, maybe you help with the youth, especially if
35. 2:10you work with college and young adult, please plan on coming to our seminar at
36. 2:18the Cove, the Billy Graham Training Center in Western North Carolina and you can
37. 2:23And learn more about that at vcove.org, thecove.org, just Google my name in the space bar, because
38. 2:31I think it's so important. Young people are not always, but very often skeptical. They've
39. 2:36read something on a blog site. Christianity is false. The Bible has errors. We've got to
40. 2:44answer these things. And the good news is we can. And J. Warner Wallace last night, that's
41. 2:50a good primer on apologetics, if you will. So I refer you to that show. Now today, though,
42. 2:57very honored to be on and later on in the program, I would like to take calls if you've got a
43. 3:02Bible question or a phone call. But tonight, we're going to visit with just a longtime friend
44. 3:07and someone I've come to appreciate very much, his name is Dr. Tony Cook of Tony Cook Ministries,
45. 3:14His website is Tonycook.org and that's C-O-K-E, Tonycook.org.
46. 3:21In addition to being a great minister of the gospel, he's a scholar and a writer and I've
47. 3:27a number of times mentioned his book on miracles and the supernatural in church history, which
48. 3:33is a really good book and I think it's a book for our times.
49. 3:38But more recently he wrote a book called Magnificent Jesus.
50. 3:41And I was just moved by that book and we'll talk about this in a lot of things but first of all Tony Cook
51. 3:48Welcome to the American family radio network. Hey Tony are you there brother? I'm not sure I'm hearing you I am
52. 3:58Thank you. Sorry about that. I had muted just for a moment. Thank you. Oh, that's a callix for the privilege of being with you
53. 4:05Well, yeah, it's good to have you on and you know
54. 4:08It seems like every day the Middle East is in the news. I've got some questions about that for you
55. 4:14but before we get into kind of what's going on in the world and the biblical worldview in the 21st century,
56. 4:21tell us about yourself and Tony Cook Ministries.
57. 4:24Alex, thank you. And I've sure enjoyed my times being with you. We've got to interact especially up at
58. 4:32Caris Bible College and you have some very official responsibilities. There I just do a little guest teaching
59. 4:40once in a while on church history, but my wife and I are just coming up on our 46th
60. 4:47year of marriage. We're from North Central Indiana. We've been preaching now for just
61. 4:55almost 45 years and had the privilege of working local church ministry for 22 years Bible college
62. 5:05for 18 and a half of that overlapping.
63. 5:09And then the last 23 years my wife and I have traveled full time and we've had the privilege
64. 5:17of preaching in 32 different countries and 48 different states here in the US.
65. 5:23So we love what we do.
66. 5:25I've been able to privilege to write 16 books and they're in over a dozen languages.
67. 5:32And so we're just thankful to see what's going on in various parts of the body of Christ
68. 5:37around the world.
69. 5:38Well, it is exciting because it's real.
70. 5:43I mean, the gospel and the change that Jesus makes when we give our life to Christ and we
71. 5:49are born again, that's very special.
72. 5:53But I know you wrote a book called In Search of Paul and you've led tours and you've looked
73. 6:01at the history you've researched and written on the history. Don't you think it's just invigorating
74. 6:07and exciting when you look at the record of history and the pages of scripture and you realize,
75. 6:15okay, wow, this is real, the Bible, Christ, this is reality.
76. 6:22It really is, and there's so many historical verifications of, for example,
77. 6:30I was just in, she was the last October that I had a group in Greece that we were leading
78. 6:39on a tour and we went to ancient Corinth and we, I always point this out when we have people
79. 6:47with us, there is a particular stone there laid by it says in the, I think it's in the Greek
80. 6:56language that it was, that stone was laid there by Erastus and it refers to him. I'm trying to remember
81. 7:07what the exact title is, but I believe it's something, you know, some governmental official.
82. 7:14And that same individual is referenced by the Apostle Paul. And you go just up a little bit north,
83. 7:23maybe 50 miles north into ancient Delphi. And there's a stone there with a reference to
84. 7:30Galileo being the Roman Pro Council. And we find out that he was there. And from that historical
85. 7:40inscription in stone that he was there, I think it was from 51 to 52 AD. And so that helps us to
86. 7:49date when Paul was preaching in Corinth and Paul stood before his judgment seat and that's
87. 7:58recorded in Acts chapter 18. So that's one of the reasons we love going to these places
88. 8:04to Ephesus over in Turkey and different places because the descriptions that are given, for
89. 8:11For example, by Luke in the book of Acts, the theater where they had the big riot against
90. 8:20Paul, the thousands of Ephesians who were screaming out, great is artemis of the Ephesians.
91. 8:29And Paul, the Bible says he wanted to go into that theater, it was not a small theater
92. 8:33it's seated and to this day it's quite intact. It's 24 to 25,000 people and we wanted to go
93. 8:42in and give defense there and his friends didn't let him go in and it even says that the high
94. 8:51ranking, I think the King James says perhaps the ACR, the high ranking government officials
95. 9:00urge Paul not to go in because the crowd was so, it's just a mob mentality.
96. 9:09And they knew that Paul would likely be killed if he went into that mob of people.
97. 9:16And so to see these places that are referred to in the Bible, and Luke gives vivid descriptions
98. 9:26of many of these different places.
99. 9:28And just to go see them today,
100. 9:32and they made everything out of rock.
101. 9:35It tends to last and stand the test of time.
102. 9:38So whether it's the Erastus Stone and Corinth,
103. 9:42that reminds us of the individual
104. 9:48that was a government official there,
105. 9:50that was also a friend of Paul,
106. 9:53and traveled some with Paul as well,
107. 9:56or the Galileo Stone that reflects upon Paul's time
108. 10:01in Corinth or the theater and ethicists.
109. 10:04There's so many historic evidences
110. 10:06that are literally recorded in stone
111. 10:10that validate the story of the New Testament.
112. 10:15That is so powerful.
113. 10:17That is so powerful.
114. 10:19And this same New Testament
115. 10:21that is historically verified, absolutely trustworthy, detail after detail, accurate, it also says
116. 10:31you may be born again by putting faith in Christ.
117. 10:35If we trust, I'll ask it this way, if we can trust what the Bible says about Earth, can
118. 10:43we trust what it promises about Heaven?
119. 10:46I think there's no other book that communicates at any level near what the Bible does.
120. 10:56Jesus was not a mere philosopher.
121. 11:00He was not simply a spiritual guru or some kind of speculative, what we might use the
122. 11:11term today, a life coach, a spiritual life coach.
123. 11:14I mean, he made statements that no one else made.
124. 11:19He talked about being the Son of God.
125. 11:24He talked about being the Savior of the world.
126. 11:27He said that life could only be found in Him.
127. 11:33He told those challenging Him.
128. 11:36He said, you search the Scriptures because you think that in then you have eternal life.
129. 11:43he said the scriptures speak of me. And he said that he was the fulfillment because of
130. 11:54after his resurrection he told his disciples that he pointed to the law of Moses, the Psalms
131. 12:05and the prophets and said all of those things were in reference to him.
132. 12:12Now I'll give you an eye, you or I, go ahead.
133. 12:17Well yeah, I mean you know when he said in John 539, search the Scriptures and that would
134. 12:23have meant you know what we call the Old Testament.
135. 12:26Jesus had searched the Scriptures, they testified of me.
136. 12:31Now if you or I made that claim that would be ludicrous.
137. 12:35You know that Bible? Exactly. I am the theme of the Bible. How could Christ say that? It's
138. 12:42because it was true. I mean, that was an amazing juggernaut of a claim. The Scriptures testify
139. 12:51of me. Isn't that amazing? It absolutely is. Yeah, if you were, I got up in someone's pulpit
140. 12:58and said that, you know, that I am the fulfillment of all of the promises, prophecies and predictions.
141. 13:06of the entire Old Testament, you know, they would be signaling, you know, to cut off the
142. 13:12microphone, to have ushers, you know, remove us from the platform and that type of thing,
143. 13:19because clearly you and I can't make that kind of statement. But Jesus did. And so it kind
144. 13:25of invalidates the approach that, you know, Jesus was just a good teacher or just a wise
145. 13:33Sage because good teachers and wise people do not make those kinds of statements
146. 13:41Exactly exactly for those just tuning in
147. 13:44We're talking with Tony Cook a scholar a minister and evangelist a historian his
148. 13:51Is that your newest book magnificent Jesus?
149. 13:55Yes, that is our newest book. It's called magnificent Jesus
150. 13:59Unmatched unrivaled unparalleled
151. 14:02He's not a very narrow-led.
152. 14:04Is we want to focus on his supremacy, his uniqueness?
153. 14:08There's no one like him.
154. 14:10You know, with Easter coming folks, there's so much in that book, and I'm privileged to
155. 14:15have a copy of it, that, you know, it will help you magnify and proclaim Jesus with Easter coming.
156. 14:23Now, what I want to do, when we come back, we're going to talk with Tony Cook, and I'm going to lay out,
157. 14:27out. I've got about two dozen scriptures of things Jesus said and I'm going to ask Dr.
158. 14:33Tony Cook, what do we conclude about this? Was Jesus really claiming to be the one and only
159. 14:41Savior, God incarnate? We'll talk about this and more. This is the American Family Radio
160. 14:46Network, Alex MacFarlane, Tony Cook, our guest. Later on, your calls and Bible questions.
161. 14:51So not only do we invite you to stay tuned, we encourage it. We've got a brief break. Don't
162. 14:57a good way.
163. 15:01A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
164. 15:05We live in a world full of people who are living their lives.
165. 15:07They're doing what they do.
166. 15:08They work.
167. 15:09They buy homes.
168. 15:10They have children.
169. 15:11They live their lives.
170. 15:12But the word of God clearly tells us to seek first the kingdom of heaven and it's righteous
171. 15:17isn't all these things shall be added.
172. 15:20Yet for many people again their goals are, well I'm just kind of seeking my own dream
173. 15:24and one happiness.
174. 15:26I want life.
175. 15:27I want to be fulfilled.
176. 15:28I want to do what I want to do.
177. 15:30The purpose of life is not to fulfill our dreams,
178. 15:33it's to fulfill God's dreams,
179. 15:34and how important it is.
180. 15:36Lord, speak to every listener.
181. 15:39Help them to recognize, Lord,
182. 15:40that you have a work and a will and a design
183. 15:42for every one of our lives.
184. 15:44You have a calling upon each of our lives.
185. 15:46Our job is to be listening to your word and your spirit
186. 15:50in doing what you call us to do.
187. 15:52Help us to answer that call.
188. 15:54We thank you in praise.
189. 15:55In Jesus' name, we do pray.
190. 15:58Amen.
191. 16:05Shining light into the darkness. This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio
192. 16:13Welcome back to the program Alex McFarland here along with Tony Cook and later on we will take your calls and Bible questions and
193. 16:21You know, it's it's been said that it's life's most important
194. 16:26Consideration Jesus. What will you do with Jesus? There's an old gospel song
195. 16:31It says, you know, what will you do with Jesus neutral? You cannot be
196. 16:35one day your soul will be asking, what will he do with me?
197. 16:41And to help us weigh in and just drill down
198. 16:44on who is Jesus and how may I know Jesus?
199. 16:48It's scholar, author, Tony Cook, a friend and a colleague.
200. 16:53And before the break, Dr. Cook,
201. 16:56you were talking about how Jesus made the claim.
202. 17:00It's an audacious claim, except in the case of Christ,
203. 17:03a true claim that he is the theme of the Bible. I mean, he was setting forth his deity and
204. 17:11Messiah ship, wasn't he?
205. 17:14Alkur, and he made statements to the religious leaders such as before Abraham was I am. And
206. 17:23saying that, he was saying, you know, I'm not just a human, I certainly was human, but
207. 17:29not just a human that came into existence 30 some years ago, I'm the pre-existent son of God.
208. 17:39I transcend all of eternity. I pre-existed with the Father and with the Holy Spirit.
209. 17:47They picked up stones to stone him because he was equating himself with the God who spoke out of
210. 17:55the burning bush when Moses said, what is your name? And he says, I am that I am. And Jesus
211. 18:03to come along then when he was born in the flesh and say before Abraham was, I am. And
212. 18:10the Bible says in John 8, they picked up stones to stone him. Well, Alex, if I said something
213. 18:16and people misunderstood it and thought I was claiming to be God and I thought they're about
214. 18:23to kill me, I would be so quick to clarify, oh I didn't mean that. Jesus didn't try to
215. 18:29clarify it at all. He did not retract, he did not backtrack because he was boldly declaring
216. 18:37who he was and that's what separates him. You know the great philosophers and speculative
217. 18:44stages of history would make you know broad brush statements but none of them ever said
218. 18:52I am the light of the world.
219. 18:55I am the bread of life.
220. 18:57And I have a statement here from a gentleman named Henry Bosch.
221. 19:02And he said Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40,
222. 19:11and Jesus for only three, yet the influence of Christ's three-year ministry
223. 19:20infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men
224. 19:30who are among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity. And I would just encourage anybody
225. 19:36who's listening. If they question who really is Jesus and if he really all that different, is he
226. 19:43just a religious teacher, philosopher, life coach, in modern terms, I encourage them to
227. 19:51just go read the Gospel of John and look at all the claims of Jesus. Look at the claims
228. 19:58he made and ask yourself, could anybody make those statements and not be? You're very familiar
229. 20:09Alex with the trilema that Jesus either Lord, liar or lunatic. And I know and you know that he is Lord.
230. 20:21You know, you remember in, it was, I believe February of 22, Russia invaded Ukraine, right?
231. 20:30That was 36 months ago. Okay, that's not long, 36 months. That's how long Jesus' ministry was.
232. 20:39You know, at age 30, Jesus began his public ministry.
233. 20:44In really just under three years later, he was crucified.
234. 20:49And you're right, Tony, one of the things, I tell people,
235. 20:54I teach to support my preaching habit.
236. 20:56And I've taught at the college level now for over 20 years,
237. 21:01and I teach a class on logic and critical thinking skills.
238. 21:06skills and I love the life of Aristotle and I teach on Aristotle and I teach what's called
239. 21:13first principles. Anyway, here's my point. The first thing I have to do, it doesn't matter
240. 21:17where I am, Liberty University, Cares Bible College, Biola, doesn't matter. First of
241. 21:24all, I have to spend 30 to 60 minutes just telling people who Aristotle was. Nobody knows
242. 21:31his name, nobody knows who Aristotle was. Until again, how many decades did he teach?
243. 21:38I believe that quote was 40. 40 years. And he's forgotten, except when geeks like me bring him up.
244. 21:48And yet Jesus, Jesus ministered for three years. And right now, a third of the world's population
245. 21:57follow him devoutly, love him supremely.
246. 22:0398% of the world's population knows who he is.
247. 22:07The most influential life ever.
248. 22:10But folks, if you're just tuning in, we're talking with Tony Cook.
249. 22:14He's the author of a great book.
250. 22:17I highly recommend it. It's called Magnificent Jesus.
251. 22:21And I've got some questions to thought you, Dr. Cook.
252. 22:24But before we do, where may people find your books?
253. 22:27And I'm saying this, I'm not just, this is not exaggeration.
254. 22:31Tony Cook's books are ones that you will keep in your library
255. 22:37and read and use.
256. 22:39I've gleaned so much that I've used in my teaching
257. 22:44and preaching from his books.
258. 22:46They are first class.
259. 22:48Where can people get your work, Dr. Cook?
260. 22:55Hey, brother, you might have been muted.
261. 22:57I'm sorry. Are you there? Tony Cook? Unmute. Hello, sir. Well, we might have lost him here.
262. 23:09Tony, if you're there, chime right in, my friend. And what I was going to ask him,
263. 23:14we're talking about Jesus' claim to his identity and authority. Tony, are you back?
264. 23:23Not thought I heard him. Well, here's the thing. He referenced C.S. Lewis' trilima.
265. 23:29Now we're drilling the end of the question, did Jesus really claim to be God?
266. 23:33And if so, what did He do to validate or authenticate that claim or prove it?
267. 23:39Prove it. Okay. C.S. Lewis said Jesus might have been a liar.
268. 23:46Maybe He said that He was God, but He wasn't. Maybe He was a lunatic.
269. 23:51Maybe He thought He was God, but He was deluded. Or maybe He was the Lord.
270. 23:56Okay, we have no reason to believe that he was lying.
271. 23:58In fact, everybody from skeptics like H.G. Wells and Bertrand Russell and even people like
272. 24:08Thomas Jefferson who was not a skeptic for his whole life.
273. 24:13But they said Jesus was the most sublime moral teacher that ever lived.
274. 24:17So he wasn't a liar and he wasn't a lunatic.
275. 24:20He was very wise.
276. 24:22the Pharisees and some of the people of his day said, never a man spake like this. So
277. 24:27C.S. Lewis's trilema, three options. If he wasn't a liar and he wasn't a lunatic, well
278. 24:34he must have been the Lord. Well in our own times there's been another option that
279. 24:40people, skeptics, have set forth, that he was a legend, that he never existed. Now
280. 24:45I've just gotten through teaching seven hours today on how that fails. But Dr.
281. 24:50cook tony are you there
282. 24:53and back with you sorry for the disconnect
283. 24:56okay sorry about that no problem i was asking where can we find your books
284. 25:01yes thank you i was well i think this cooks the o k e
285. 25:05and the only end of cook and people can go to our website
286. 25:09which is simply tony
287. 25:12dot org or g or they can go to amazon they can go to barns and noble they can go
288. 25:18to
289. 25:19our publisher, Harrison House.
290. 25:23So any of those options.
291. 25:27Amen.
292. 25:27Well, establishing that Jesus did claim to be the Messiah and proved it by rising from the dead.
293. 25:36I want to throw a few verses at you and you tell me what the messianic implication of these verses are.
294. 25:44In Mark 2, 10, Jesus said he had power on earth to forgive sin.
295. 25:51He said he had the authority to forgive sin.
296. 25:56That's a pretty big claim, isn't it?
297. 26:00Extremely large.
298. 26:01And that was one of the things that got Jesus in trouble with the religious leaders of his
299. 26:07day because when he made those types of statements, when he told people, your sins are forgiven
300. 26:14you, the religious people, they blew a gasket and they said, only God can feel it.
301. 26:22forgive sins. And I think it was kind of the whole point of, you know, Jesus going ahead
302. 26:28and doing something that they knew only God could do. And so again, they were forced to
303. 26:34make a choice. They were forced to say, again, this man is false, this man is, you know,
304. 26:42presumptuously taking authority that he doesn't have, or maybe there's something about him
305. 26:49that is unique. Maybe there's something about him like no other human we've ever come in contact
306. 26:57with. So Jesus, he exercised divine prerogatives when he was involved in the earth. And one of
307. 27:06those was forgiving sin. Yeah, I mean, none of us could say that. I mean, we could say, I'm praying
308. 27:15for you. I'm helping. I'll help you. But there is not a one of us that could legitimately say,
309. 27:22I absolve you of sin and guilt. But Jesus could say that. Here's something huge. Mark 228,
310. 27:30Jesus said, this is big, folks, that he was the Lord of the Sabbath. One of the titles,
311. 27:39Son of Man, that's a reference from Daniel.
312. 27:42It's a reference to this Messiah.
313. 27:46So Tony, here's the thing, for those that wonder,
314. 27:49did Jesus really claim to be God and the Messiah?
315. 27:54Okay, pious Jews for centuries had observed the Sabbath.
316. 27:59In fact, their faithful observance of a Sabbath
317. 28:03was indicative of their relationship with Almighty God.
318. 28:06How big of an issue is it that Jesus said, okay,
319. 28:12observant pious Jews, I am the Lord of the Sabbath?
320. 28:19That's big.
321. 28:20Yeah, Alex, again, that is huge
322. 28:23because that was such an integral part
323. 28:25and for many still is today of their faith.
324. 28:30And it was one of the 10 commandments.
325. 28:34And then of course there were rabbinic writings, massive amounts of rabbinic writings that added
326. 28:44all kinds of nuance and detail and micro stipulations and so on.
327. 28:51So there was God's original intention of the Sabbath.
328. 28:56And then there were all the attachments that came about through religious tradition.
329. 29:03And essentially when Jesus was saying the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath, was
330. 29:10he was claiming to be the one, among other things, he was claiming to be the authoritative
331. 29:17one who was probably the right to properly interpret the Sabbath.
332. 29:25They were trying to add their own interpretation on what it meant to keep the Sabbath.
333. 29:32And Jesus was basically saying, I am the one who is the Lord of the Sabbath.
334. 29:38And you know, for example, if you're taking your book, for example, and I decide to interpret
335. 29:47what I think Alex McFarland meant.
336. 29:50And so you hear me saying, well, Alex said this in his book, and this is what Alex meant.
337. 29:56And you might say, well, Tony, no, that's not what I meant.
338. 30:00You know, I'm the author of this book.
339. 30:03I'm the one that has the right to interpret what I said, not someone else.
340. 30:08That's essentially what's happening here is that Jesus was telling people that he was
341. 30:14the Lord of the Sabbath because he had created the Sabbath.
342. 30:18He's the one that generated it.
343. 30:21And therefore he was the one who had the authority and the right to properly interpret it.
344. 30:27You know, Tony, this is a horribly elementary illustration, but I'm going to say this for
345. 30:32the music people out there.
346. 30:35The Beatles are a lot of Beatles fans, and there's a famous song, A Hard Day's Night.
347. 30:39It opens with this chord, this bang, and there are a lot of notes in this chord, and people
348. 30:46have, I mean, there's actually one guy wrote his master's thesis on which notes were in
349. 30:51The Hard Day's Night chord.
350. 30:52Do you know the chord of which I speak to?
351. 30:56I don't, but I want to learn from this.
352. 31:00Well, anyway, so George Harrison, who was lead guitarist of the Beatles, they were with a
353. 31:04bunch of musicians one night, Jeff Lynn, Tom Petty, Elvis Costello, Bob Dylan, and it was
354. 31:12all this talk about the hard days night, this opening chord bang.
355. 31:18So anyway, they were speculating, well George Harrison gently picked up a guitar and he
356. 31:23He said, here are these notes.
357. 31:25Now go over there and simultaneously hit these weird notes on the piano.
358. 31:30And the lead guitarist for Tom Petty, whose name was Mike Campbell, he said, no, no,
359. 31:40that's not how it goes.
360. 31:41And George Harrison gently said, I wrote the chord.
361. 31:46Trust me, I was there.
362. 31:48I wrote the chord.
363. 31:49I know the notes that make up this very enigmatic chord.
364. 31:53That's the point you're right is like Jesus is saying, look,
365. 31:56you all who argue over the minutia of the law,
366. 32:02I am the law.
367. 32:03Now when we come back, we're gonna take some calls.
368. 32:04Here's the number folks, get this number.
369. 32:06Triple eight, 5898840.
370. 32:09Triple eight, 5898840.
371. 32:13If you've got a Bible question,
372. 32:15or maybe you wanna know how to reach a friend
373. 32:18who's struggling with doubt or unbelief, Tony Cook and I,
374. 32:22We want to help you.
375. 32:23We're just excited about Jesus.
376. 32:25He is the author of the brand new book,
377. 32:27Magnificent Jesus.
378. 32:28It's a fantastic book.
379. 32:31More about who Jesus is and how we can help others find him
380. 32:35as well.
381. 32:35If you have a Bible question, we look forward
382. 32:37to hearing from you after this brief break.
383. 32:40On the American Family Radio Network, stay tuned.
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391. 33:29The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrors are available at eFR.net.
392. 33:41back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
393. 33:47Welcome back everybody.
394. 33:49Alex McFarland here, by the way, before we resume our conversation with Dr. Toni Cook and
395. 33:54take your telephone calls.
396. 33:56My own website is AlexMcFarland.com.
397. 33:59My travel schedule is there.
398. 34:01I'm teaching at Kerris this week, but at the end of the month I'll be in Wichita, Kansas.
399. 34:07We've got an evangelistic crusade there in Wichita and a men's event that we're doing
400. 34:14as part of that and a lot going on seven youth camps this summer.
401. 34:20We estimate there'll be about 1,200 teenagers in seven camps.
402. 34:23So, keep us in prayer.
403. 34:26Also, pray for Tony Cook.
404. 34:29Tony, give that website again is at tonicookwithne.org.
405. 34:34Yes, Tony Cook.org and E on the end of Cook.
406. 34:42Well, there's so much to be excited about.
407. 34:44And let me tell you folks, God is at work in the world and he wants to be at work in your
408. 34:49life and use you.
409. 34:51And the number, triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty, we're going to pick
410. 34:55up the phone and go to Texas, Lamont in Texas.
411. 35:01Thank you for holding and welcome to our conversation with Tony Cook.
412. 35:07I just had a question.
413. 35:09Are there apostles and prophets today in the world?
414. 35:14And if so, what are the qualifications to be?
415. 35:19Great question.
416. 35:20Toni, what do you say on this?
417. 35:23Well, I don't think there are apostles
418. 35:26in the sense of the original 12.
419. 35:30The original 12 were eyewitnesses,
420. 35:34and this is something that's spelled out in the book of Acts.
421. 35:37the original 12 were eyewitnesses of the resurrection.
422. 35:42But the word apostle simply means sent one.
423. 35:47And most often what we would call apostle
424. 35:51in the modern sense of the term
425. 35:54would be found in the missionaries function.
426. 35:59It's someone who's sent primarily to preach the gospel
427. 36:02where the gospel has not been preached.
428. 36:05And that doesn't mean that everyone who takes a trip is an apostle, but there are people who
429. 36:10are called to go and preach where Christ has never been preached.
430. 36:16They have a divine gift to establish churches, to raise up leaders and things of that nature.
431. 36:26So I believe, while not in the original sense of being an eyewitness of the resurrection,
432. 36:34but in the sense of being a messenger, and Paul talked about the signs of an apostle, they
433. 36:44are anointed and gifted to do things kind of beyond the ordinary.
434. 36:50I think the apostolic office does exist today, even though it's in a different form.
435. 36:59The prophetic office, I believe, does exist.
436. 37:02But we also have to be aware that, you know,
437. 37:05anytime there's a genuine,
438. 37:08there are also opportunities for counterfeit
439. 37:13and just as Paul warned against false apostles in his day
440. 37:19and John warned against false prophets as well.
441. 37:24Not everybody who claims to be an apostle is one,
442. 37:28not everyone who claims to be a prophet is one.
443. 37:33So I have two friends, well, one gentleman
444. 37:36who's long passed away.
445. 37:39Kenneth Hagen wrote a book called,
446. 37:43let's say he gave gifts unto men,
447. 37:46dealing with the apostolic and prophetic ministry today,
448. 37:50and a dear friend who's very active in ministry
449. 37:53today named Rick Renner, R-E-N-N-E-R, just came out with a fabulous work on Apostles Ed.
450. 38:05See, I'm holding it here.
451. 38:07It's about as big as what the New York phone book would have used to have been.
452. 38:12Apostles and prophets, their roles in the past, the present, and the last days.
453. 38:20That's by Rick Renner, a fabulous book.
454. 38:22And by the way, forgive me for jumping in here,
455. 38:26but like in 1 Corinthians 9, 1, Paul connects the fact
456. 38:32of having seen the risen Jesus to being an apostle.
457. 38:35So I agree with you, Tony, like in that sense,
458. 38:38an apostle in the New Testament was one who had seen Jesus
459. 38:42and experienced a relationship with the risen Lord,
460. 38:46I mean, had seen the risen Jesus.
461. 38:49But then in 2 Timothy 4, 2 Paul said, preach the word.
462. 38:54So in the sense of a sent one
463. 38:58and definitely preaching the word,
464. 39:00exhorting, correcting, rebuking, instructing, and righteousness.
465. 39:06Hopefully every person faithfully carrying out
466. 39:10their great commission ministry is being an apostle
467. 39:14in that sense.
468. 39:15We're going to go to Oklahoma, Carolyn in Oklahoma.
469. 39:20Carolyn, thanks for holding and welcome to the program.
470. 39:24Thank you.
471. 39:25I'm a first time caller and I appreciate you taking my call because I listened to you quite
472. 39:29often but never gotten through.
473. 39:31So I have a grandson that is in his 20.
474. 39:40He attended church with us, his grandparents, a lot of it when he was a boy and was saved
475. 39:46baptized as a young, as about 11-year-old boy. And so he,
476. 39:52the violent way, when he was about 17, I guess you might say he got involved through a friend with
477. 40:06LDS Church. And so for a few years, he was involved with LDS and not to be critical, but just to say,
478. 40:16I think he was searching for a way to try to save his dad, you might say, because his dad was not a
479. 40:22Christian and you know in their church it seems to me from what he explained to us
480. 40:27was that it could be baptized for his ancestors who were not saved and so he
481. 40:33was baptized twice once for himself and once for his ancestors I guess and I
482. 40:38think that was his way of trying to save his dad maybe I'm not sure but anyway
483. 40:44after a few years he pulled out of LDS and he has not come back to any Christian
484. 40:51church as his grandparents and and he was never disrespectful. He has a full-time job
485. 41:02is working on his education and all those things but he has a distance from any kind
486. 41:09of faith based organization and you know we so during those three years you know we tried
487. 41:18we didn't nag him but we tried to get him involved with our church and that kind of thing but we
488. 41:23always just, you know, he always sat down and was very respectful. We had
489. 41:27supper time and, you know, all of those things. So don't really know
490. 41:32he's living on his own now and, you know, taking care of himself and all those things.
491. 41:37I just really don't know how to reach him as far as his faith is concerned.
492. 41:44You know, thank you. Thank you for calling in. And I think about
493. 41:49a young man that I had the privilege of leading to Christ
494. 41:54some years ago in North Carolina, he was raised by his grandfather and his grandfather died,
495. 42:01and they weren't sure that his grandfather was saved. And so he became an atheist. And I
496. 42:08was sharing with this young man, I said, the idea that your grandfather is not in heaven
497. 42:13is just so intolerable. So you've become an atheist because at least you're telling yourself,
498. 42:19well, if there's no God, there's no afterlife, and if there's no afterlife, there's no
499. 42:23a possibility that my grandfather who I loved is not in heaven. I'm going to say this and
500. 42:30I'm going to bring you an Tony Cook. Very often emotional pain can lead to intellectual skepticism.
501. 42:39And it sounds like there was something appealing, the LDS have this baptism for the dead thing,
502. 42:46which is not biblical. But I'm glad he came out of it. Now we need to pray and I'm praying
503. 42:52that God will use you to help bring Him back to the solid ground of following the Lord Jesus Christ.
504. 43:00But Tony, I want you to weigh in on this very often the painful things of life. And I would say this,
505. 43:08the thing about, okay, his father died and his father was not a Christian, but the only person's
506. 43:16heart that we can truly speak authoritatively on is our own. And it can be very dangerous
507. 43:23and unhealthy to obsess about the spiritual fate of someone who we just don't know. The
508. 43:30only one I can really speak about is my own heart. But Tony, you're not only a scholar,
509. 43:37I know you're a shepherd and you're a pastor. How would you begin to minister to a young
510. 43:43man in such a situation.
511. 43:45Yeah, well first of all, I want to commend Carolyn's care and concern, you know, for this young
512. 43:53man and her desire that he comes full circle and comes back.
513. 44:01And Carolyn, you mentioned that he did get saved and baptized.
514. 44:05Did you say when he was 11?
515. 44:11But at a certain age, he did get saved.
516. 44:14So our faith is that that seed that got planted in him,
517. 44:20the Word of God and the Holy Spirit,
518. 44:24that God will bring him back around full circle.
519. 44:29I think, Alex, what you said about the emotional pain,
520. 44:33creating not only skepticism,
521. 44:36but maybe other buffers and looking for solutions,
522. 44:41solutions, even if they're not founded in scripture, you know, people just so desperately
523. 44:48want, you know, to be able to do something and, you know, maybe that could be going into
524. 44:53indulgences, you know, trying to get a loved one, you know,
525. 44:59by somebody out of purgatory.
526. 45:00Yeah.
527. 45:01Yeah, but you know the practice of baptism for the dead is never
528. 45:11Prescribed in scripture. It is
529. 45:14described and Paul really just mentioned it in passing in
530. 45:191 Corinthians chapter 15 and he did not refer to it as a Christian
531. 45:26He said about why are they
532. 45:29baptized for the dead if there is no resurrection. He didn't say why are we
533. 45:35baptized for the dead. He was referring to a pagan practice. And so we kind of
534. 45:42have to balance out here the desire to be very compassionate and very sensitive to
535. 45:48somebody who's hurting versus our commitment to biblical truth. And you know,
536. 45:57So we want to walk compassion, we want to walk tenderly.
537. 46:02But my heart goes out to this young man.
538. 46:06We can be sincere, but we can be sincerely wrong.
539. 46:10And my prayer is that he will find his peace in the scripture.
540. 46:17And part of that means there are some situations.
541. 46:21We just have to leave it in the hands of God.
542. 46:24And like you said, Alex, there are some things.
543. 46:27we don't know. We are not omniscient. The Bible says that we know in part and we prophesy in part.
544. 46:36But thank God for the part that we know and thank God for the part that we can prophesy or
545. 46:42preach or teach or share. And I don't share this to be traumatic to anyone, but if there's somebody
546. 46:50listening and they've lost a loved one and they think, man, that reminds me. I don't know if this
547. 46:56person that I knew was even saved. We have to commit their soul to the hands of a kind
548. 47:05loving but righteous God. If we're looking for some factual, even though we may not want
549. 47:13facts, because the facts may bother us a little bit, but I think of the rich man who died in
550. 47:20Luke chapter 16 and Jesus gave this description of this individual who missed Eredice and his
551. 47:31one desire of not being in Eredice, not being in the place of comfort was that those he loved
552. 47:41and left behind would not experience the same situation.
553. 47:50And so I think we can very confidently say that there's someone we loved and cared about
554. 47:58who perhaps did not make heaven.
555. 48:01Their one desire is that we make heaven.
556. 48:05So one of the ways to honor their life, whether it was everything it could have been or should
557. 48:12have been, is that we want to make sure that our hearts are right with God, and that would
558. 48:20be their great desire as well.
559. 48:23Tony Cook, that's a good word and sister, we are praying for you as you are used by God
560. 48:28to bring this young man back to Christ.
561. 48:32Folks, the greatest thing in the world is to know Jesus and then, whoever you are, whatever
562. 48:37your station in life, to invest yourself in his great commission.
563. 48:42That counts for eternity.
564. 48:43Thanks for listening.
565. 48:44Thank you, Dr. Tundee Cook, for being on with us.
566. 48:46Bobby Rosa, Jeff McIntosh, Marty Sparks, all the great folks helping us do the programming
567. 48:52for AFR.
568. 48:53Thank you one and all.
569. 48:54Tell somebody about the American Family Radio Network, but tell everybody about Jesus.
570. 49:07The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American
571. 49:12Family Association or American Family Radio.