Dr. Carol Swain joins guest host Alex McFarland discussing her new book, “The Gay Affair”, releasing January 2, 2025

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:02It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:10It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:23Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28and now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:32In Proverbs 6 verse 17, the word of God says that
12. 0:36a lying tongue is an abomination to the Lord.
13. 0:40I'll explain why I let out with that verse here in just a few moments, but welcome to the program.
14. 0:45My name is Alex McFarland. Very honored to be on the show tonight,
15. 0:50attorney, pastor, broadcaster, Abe Hamilton III is traveling and
16. 0:54it's my privilege to sit in for him tonight and
17. 0:57Well, I have a very special guest. I'm just very honored to speak with Dr. Carol Swain.
18. 1:04You know, it's been our privilege to interview a lot of people over the years and have a lot
19. 1:08of opinion makers and thinkers come to the table. But really, she has a resume like few
20. 1:16you'll ever experience. And before we bring this distinguished guest to the microphone,
21. 1:21and we'll talk about her book.
22. 1:23Just think about this.
23. 1:25A PhD from UNC Chapel Hill, a master's from Yale,
24. 1:31a tenured professor at Princeton and Vanderbilt.
25. 1:34And she has taught political science and law.
26. 1:37She's a sought after cable news contributor, guest expert,
27. 1:41best-selling author, prominently known national speaker.
28. 1:45She served our country in a number
29. 1:49of Presidential Appointments, a former distinguished senior fellow for
30. 1:54Constitutional Studies with the Texas Public Policy Foundation and the Tennessee
31. 1:59Advisory Committee to the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, the National Endowment
32. 2:04for the Humanities and the 1776 Commission, and she's been a critic of DEI.
33. 2:11We can talk about that.
34. 2:13She is the author of counter-cultural living, what Jesus has to say about life, marriage,
35. 2:20race, gender, and materialism.
36. 2:23She's been on the BBC, C-SPAN, ABC's headline News, CNN, Fox News, Max, and more Wall Street
37. 2:30Journal, Epoch Times USA Today.
38. 2:33Just what a distinguished individual and what an honor for us to converse with her today
39. 2:40on the American Family Radio Network.
40. 2:42Dr. Swain, I want to say thank you for being on the program with us tonight, but thank you
41. 2:47for what you've done for God and country because you're an inspiration, you really are, and
42. 2:54I look forward to hearing from your opinions.
43. 2:59Thank you so much.
44. 3:00It's an honor to be on your show.
45. 3:04I know something of your life story and your trajectory.
46. 3:09Did you ever...
47. 3:10to hear about your journey and where you are in academics and in public life and in serving
48. 3:18the Lord and serving our country.
49. 3:21Were these things you envisioned for yourself at a young age?
50. 3:27No, none of it.
51. 3:30And I can attest to the fact that life is a journey and we are works in progress and I
52. 3:36don't know how to start an end.
53. 3:39I'm 70 years old now and I very much feel like I'm waiting for God to reveal the next
54. 3:46chapter.
55. 3:47There's always the next chapter.
56. 3:48We never quite get there.
57. 3:51We own the journey and hopefully if we are Christian believers, our path draws us closer
58. 3:57to God, but it doesn't have to.
59. 4:01Amen.
60. 4:02Our path should draw us closer to God.
61. 4:05You know, I'm really impressed with all of your accomplishments.
62. 4:09And let me just ask you to give a word of encouragement for listeners.
63. 4:14And I'll tell you why.
64. 4:16We meet a lot of people that they live in the world of woulda, coulda, shoulda.
65. 4:22If I had only done this or I should have done that, and I often say to people, well, start
66. 4:28now.
67. 4:29You know, better late than never.
68. 4:32And what do you say to the person because you are a super high achiever to God be the glory?
69. 4:39But could you give some encouragement to the person who thinks for them the train has already
70. 4:45left the station?
71. 4:47Because I don't think it's ever too late to get started on the pursuit of God's will.
72. 4:52What do you say to the person who beats themselves up and thinks that they don't have any chances
73. 4:58left?
74. 5:00When you read my resume, I'd like to sort of give the short elevated speech about my
75. 5:07life.
76. 5:08I was one of the 12 children born and raised in rural poverty in Southwestern Virginia,
77. 5:13spent the early part of my life in a two-room shack without any indoor plumbing because
78. 5:22of the poverty and the harsh living in rural South
79. 5:29West Virginia, I dropped out of school
80. 5:32after the eighth grade, so did my siblings.
81. 5:35I married age 16.
82. 5:37By the time I was 21, I had three small children.
83. 5:42Two people entered into my life that encouraged me.
84. 5:45One was a medical doctor.
85. 5:47One was an African orderly.
86. 5:49And I ended up getting a high school equivalency,
87. 5:54going to a community college,
88. 5:56and getting the first to five degrees,
89. 5:58and I didn't speak five.
90. 6:00I earned my degrees to two-year degree in two years,
91. 6:05made the Dean's List a couple of times
92. 6:08doing the two-year degree.
93. 6:10I graduated with a four-year degree
94. 6:12in criminal justice, magna cum laude,
95. 6:14and then I went to Virginia Tech,
96. 6:16got a master's in political science,
97. 6:18UNC Chapel Hill PhD in political science.
98. 6:21I taught at Princeton, earned early tenure there,
99. 6:26and after earning my tenure, I went back to school
100. 6:31and got another master's in mall from Yale.
101. 6:34I didn't really plan all of this.
102. 6:37I did not plan to become a university professor.
103. 6:41And as a young adult, I struggled with depression,
104. 6:45suicide gestures, and the people
105. 6:48came into my life and encouraged me, the medical doctor told me I was intelligent, I could do
106. 6:54more with my life and I was in a very bad family situation at the time, bad marriage. The African
107. 7:01orderly told me that he went to college with a lot of people who were not as smart as me,
108. 7:08I should go to college and I investigated and learned that I could go to college. I had
109. 7:14I could have gone without the GED to a community college.
110. 7:19So I didn't set out to become a university professor.
111. 7:22I struggled with Shani most of my life.
112. 7:25In fact, God did not deliver me of my Shani's until I was in my 40's.
113. 7:29So to the person out there, it is never too late.
114. 7:33I think God will put things in your heart, and so you may be in an impossible situation,
115. 7:39But in the back of your head, you had this vision in your mind of something you'd like to do.
116. 7:45If you actually shared with someone, they might lie because they see your situation.
117. 7:50They know where you came from.
118. 7:52They don't believe it's possible.
119. 7:54A lot of things God puts in your heart and reveals to you, it's for you.
120. 7:59It's not for you to broadcast to the world and take an opinion poll on because people will
121. 8:04shoot it down.
122. 8:05Some things are just for you.
123. 8:09So I would say, don't look at your circumstances right now and see that it's something that
124. 8:15defines you.
125. 8:16I did not set out to become a university professor.
126. 8:19I did not envision myself doing media and having the impact that I have.
127. 8:26But I always knew as a child that there was something I was supposed to do.
128. 8:30I felt trapped as a young adult because my circumstances didn't match the something I
129. 8:36was supposed to do.
130. 8:38So there you have it.
131. 8:40Amen.
132. 8:41Amen.
133. 8:42You know, in the interest of time I'm going to kind of cut to the chase and I want to talk
134. 8:46about some of your analysis of DEI and wokeness.
135. 8:52But there's a quote often attributed to Oscar Wilde that imitation is the sincerest form of
136. 9:00flattery.
137. 9:02But then imitation can go beyond that to plagiarism.
138. 9:07And so could we talk a little bit about the Claudine Gay and Harvard episode and you basically
139. 9:17called out some things that took, I think some courage.
140. 9:21but it was the right thing to say, but may we talk about that?
141. 9:25Yes, we can.
142. 9:26And I can tell you that the book, the Gay Affair,
143. 9:31Harvard Pleasureism, and the Death of Academic Integrity
144. 9:36is being released January 2nd.
145. 9:39It's available for sale now at bookstores.
146. 9:42And there's a Christian bookstore in Nashville,
147. 9:44logos, bookstores, logos online.
148. 9:47They have signed copies of the book
149. 9:50that they can ship out anywhere in the country.
150. 9:53The whole thing about Claudine Gay, it was a year ago.
151. 9:58It was December 10th, 2023 when I received a phone call from someone
152. 10:04and was in the evening, was after the Christmas program at church.
153. 10:09This person said, have you heard the news?
154. 10:12The president of Harvard University pleasure-ized her dissertation.
155. 10:17And I hadn't heard the news.
156. 10:20And the next question was,
157. 10:23and guess who she pleasurized?
158. 10:25You.
159. 10:27And then this person recommended that I go to X,
160. 10:33or Twitter, and Chris Wipo's Twitter stream.
161. 10:37And that's where I saw that there was an article.
162. 10:40And some of my work was listed as work she had pleasurized.
163. 10:45And then that same night,
164. 10:47December 10th I got a phone call from a reporter.
165. 10:50He wanted a statement.
166. 10:51And I did not come down hard on her initially.
167. 10:55I didn't get angry or upset.
168. 10:58I wanted to read the work for myself.
169. 11:00And so the following day I started reading her articles
170. 11:04and I hadn't gotten to her dissertation yet.
171. 11:07And her dissertation is where she really,
172. 11:10I would argue, pleasurized my work verbatim
173. 11:13as well as took ideas.
174. 11:15but I was deeply disturbed.
175. 11:18And I was sad.
176. 11:20I was sad because I thought she was going to get fired.
177. 11:25I was sad because we were both black women.
178. 11:28And I did not think that it was a good thing to happen
179. 11:33to America that Harvard's first black president
180. 11:38would be a pleasure risk.
181. 11:39And this would be exposed six months after she took her job.
182. 11:43So I was feeling sad.
183. 11:48but then harvard came out
184. 11:50i believe with that same week and said
185. 11:52that
186. 11:53she uh... they stood behind her
187. 11:55that she had merely engaged in
188. 11:58duplicative language without attribution
189. 12:02so they basically
190. 12:03remains pleasure with them
191. 12:05duplicative language without attribution
192. 12:09uh... and i have to smile at the end
193. 12:12you need to know that is our representation and so that harvard
194. 12:17had dug it seals in and there were people divided,
195. 12:20some people defended her, some people criticized her
196. 12:24and I believe rightly so.
197. 12:27The more I read and the more interviews I gave,
198. 12:31I was inundated with interviews.
199. 12:32I think I gave 83 interviews in six weeks,
200. 12:36all kinds of media, liberal media, conservative media.
201. 12:41And I started getting very angry
202. 12:43And I can tell you that most of the time, I'm a calm person.
203. 12:47Calm is a cucumber.
204. 12:48Right.
205. 12:49If that's the right expression.
206. 12:52I started to get really worked up.
207. 12:55And it was near the holidays.
208. 12:57And the good thing that came out of it
209. 12:59was to preserve my sanity, I started posting scriptures on X
210. 13:05and on my other social media platforms.
211. 13:07And I got really into the word of God,
212. 13:11because I needed to get away from the politics and to get away from the situation and to just
213. 13:18start my day differently.
214. 13:20And that was something that I did the first day and it made the second day and there was
215. 13:26such a positive reaction and people told me how much it meant to them that I was posting
216. 13:31those scriptures that I pretty much kept it up.
217. 13:33I don't post every day but I post on a fairly regular basis.
218. 13:39So that's the good that came out of it.
219. 13:41I calmed myself down for the Christmas holidays
220. 13:46and I'm doing pretty well.
221. 13:49And then January 2nd of this year, 2024,
222. 13:53Claudine Gay resigned as president of Harvard University.
223. 13:58And in her letter, she partially blamed racism.
224. 14:03And then Harvard stood by her and said,
225. 14:06this was a great law, she was a great scholar.
226. 14:08And all of these things that I thought was my truth,
227. 14:11I got angry all over again and at that time, and so the book talks about all of these emotions.
228. 14:18I engaged an attorney and later a legal team and I pursued a Sue in Harvard.
229. 14:29And the book includes them, the appendices, letters my lawyers wrote to Harvard.
230. 14:36Hey forgive me, Dr. Swain, we've got to take a break.
231. 14:39We've got a break coming up.
232. 14:40This is out from Farland talking with Dr. Carol Swain.
233. 14:43And then my complaint.
234. 14:44The Gay Affair, Harvard plagiarism and the death of academic integrity.
235. 14:49The new book I would urge you to read.
236. 14:51Stay tuned.
237. 14:52We're back after this brief break.
238. 14:53A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
239. 15:02It is in fact relatively easy to bless others and encourage people with our words if we wisely
240. 15:09and very deliberately seek to do so.
241. 15:12Well, what are some words that we can speak as a lifestyle that can bless others?
242. 15:17What are some words that can promote healing, grace, and encouragement in the lives of others?
243. 15:23Well, here are a few.
244. 15:26Thank you.
245. 15:27I appreciate you.
246. 15:29Please, how can I help you?
247. 15:32I'm sorry.
248. 15:34I apologize.
249. 15:36Please forgive me.
250. 15:37How can I pray for you?
251. 15:39What can I do to bless you today?
252. 15:43You are awesome. You are a blessing. I believe in you. I believe you can do it. You will do great.
253. 15:51And obviously these are just a few words, but words that can bless and encourage others in their daily lives.
254. 16:04Shining light into the darkness. This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
255. 16:11Welcome back to the program. I will wish you a Merry Christmas on behalf of the Hamilton Corner
256. 16:16in the American Family Radio Network staff. We're having a little bit of audio problem
257. 16:21with Dr. Carol Swain and we're trying to get her back and our producer will let me know
258. 16:26if we have her back. Fascinating story. Folks, did you pick up in that first segment when
259. 16:32it became clear that the president of Harvard, Dr. Gay, in her dissertation had plagiarized
260. 16:42Carol Swain. Okay. Claudine Gay, the first black female president of Harvard, had plagiarized
261. 16:50just lengthy portions of Carol Swain's work. They called it, now get this, duplicative
262. 16:58language without attribution. Okay. Attribution is a footnote. You attribute, like I gave an
263. 17:06Oscar Wilde quote, I attributed the quote to Oscar Wilde, attribution is citations, sources,
264. 17:14footnotes.
265. 17:15So I have to smile because the left is so adept, so good at creating double speak, duplicative
266. 17:23language without attribution.
267. 17:27You know what we call that?
268. 17:28Plagiarism.
269. 17:29You can't just copy somebody's work and pawn it off as your own.
270. 17:36So Dr. Swain was talking about, and again, what an accomplished individual, five earned
271. 17:41degrees, tenured professorships, published best-selling author.
272. 17:48And then when a black female, Claudine Gay, plagiarizes another black female, Carol Swain,
273. 17:58in gay loses her or resigns ultimately from Harvard, they call it racism. How could it be
274. 18:06racism? I think we have Dr. Swain back. Dr. Swain, are you there?
275. 18:11I am and I'd like to make a couple of clarifications. In the, Harvard has never acknowledged that
276. 18:22and gave anything from me.
277. 18:25I'm one of maybe as many as 20 people she plagiarized
278. 18:31and she took different amounts from different people.
279. 18:35There are five instances of plagiarism of my work.
280. 18:39My book argues that her whole dissertation,
281. 18:42her whole thesis was based on her using my work
282. 18:47as a straw man to frame her thesis.
283. 18:50And so it wasn't just the verbatim,
284. 18:53the verbatim theft of sentences or paragraphs,
285. 18:56it was the whole idea for her dissertation.
286. 19:03And so my book has something called a side by side,
287. 19:06where I will show what she wrote, what I wrote,
288. 19:12or in the case of her abstract,
289. 19:14and in the case of her research question
290. 19:17that undergirds her dissertation,
291. 19:20I show how that relates to my work.
292. 19:22So that's part of what readers will find in the book,
293. 19:26as well as the lawyers' letters and the complaint
294. 19:31that I would have filed in federal court
295. 19:34had I been financially able to absorb the loss.
296. 19:39If I had lost, I would have been responsible
297. 19:42for Harvard's legal fees.
298. 19:44And I thought about it.
299. 19:46I did not want to find myself in a situation where,
300. 19:49One, the case could go to trial,
301. 19:52and I would be in front of a liberal judge,
302. 19:56who maybe wouldn't like black women conservatives.
303. 19:59And so that was a risk.
304. 20:01The other thing was, I did not want to be using
305. 20:04my retirement money and my social security
306. 20:07to pay Harvard's lawyers.
307. 20:09And in the book, I talk about a lunch I had
308. 20:12with a former colleague and he, his law professors,
309. 20:16I gave before the Supreme Court.
310. 20:18And his advice to me was don't go up against an enemy who can level you.
311. 20:25And he gave an analogy of a mob in Israel that they picked a fight with Israel and what happened
312. 20:36makes with Gaza pretty much got wiped out.
313. 20:40And so he told me or advised me to find another way, another way other than the lawsuit.
314. 20:47And so he threw out, you know, you in academics, you could do a conference, you could write a
315. 20:51book.
316. 20:52And he jokingly said, and you could call the book the Gay Affair.
317. 20:56And so that's a part of my title, the Gay Affair, however, pleasureism and the death of
318. 21:02academic integrity.
319. 21:04And my purpose in writing the book is one is the whole Harvard accountable, but the other
320. 21:11is to draw attention to the fact that plagiarism has become a plague in higher education.
321. 21:19And when an institution like Harvard decides to redefine plagiarism, it would impact every
322. 21:25other institution.
323. 21:28Because other institutions look to Harvard as being a leader.
324. 21:33And so if Harvard says that there's nothing wrong with plagiarism, that it's merely duplicative
325. 21:38language without attribution, then you will find it would
326. 21:43spot more of that. And so that's part of the reasoning
327. 21:47behind my decision. I could let the lawsuit go and my
328. 21:53personality is not one where it's easy to walk away, but I
329. 21:56could not let them off the hook. And so that's why I wrote the
330. 22:00book. And the book is being published pretty much on the
331. 22:05the anniversary of Claudine Gay's resignation from Harvard.
332. 22:09And there were two things involved in that resignation.
333. 22:12First is she gave tone-deaf testimony before Congress about the anti-Semitism on her campus
334. 22:21and the willingness of Harvard to protect its Jewish faculty, staff, and students from danger
335. 22:28from the Pro-Homoth groups, the pro-Palestinian groups.
336. 22:33was part of what that weakened her.
337. 22:38And then the plagiarism allegations had been going around probably for a year or two around
338. 22:45this time someone came forward and that wasn't afraid of Harvard because the first time the
339. 22:52plagiarism was brought to Harvard's attention, their response was they were going to sue the
340. 22:56person who brought it to their attention.
341. 23:00But then the circumstances switch to the point that they couldn't stop it from getting out
342. 23:06into the public.
343. 23:08Mm-hmm.
344. 23:09Wow.
345. 23:10Well, I've got to ask, is there time for people to purchase and ship this book before Christmas?
346. 23:17Because folks, this would, I know already, and I have not read the book.
347. 23:21I don't have a copy of the book yet, but I can tell it would be a riveting read.
348. 23:27uh... doctors when could people
349. 23:29uh... get this uh... and if so how
350. 23:33they would go to
351. 23:35they can order to my website but go logo
352. 23:38l-o-g-o-s
353. 23:40christian bookstore in Nashville
354. 23:42they have copies of the book that are signed by me
355. 23:46and that is the only place you can get the book until january second because
356. 23:51if you're you can order from amazon
357. 23:53or berns and nobles but
358. 23:55they're not going to deliver it until
359. 23:58uh... early january
360. 24:01uh... so let me ask you this and this is that by the way thank you for telling
361. 24:06the story and uh...
362. 24:09you know
363. 24:10it's one that really is part of a larger story about i think our loss of morals
364. 24:17because really academic integrity
365. 24:20is is a moral issue would you agree
366. 24:24i would and i would say that the mark is and that conservatives always talk about
367. 24:27and we're right to talk about it is that it's about
368. 24:31turned down traditional structures and practices.
369. 24:35And at one time in higher education universities were seen
370. 24:40as marketplaces of ideas.
371. 24:43And so you had conservative faculty,
372. 24:45you had liberal faculty, but you had divergent views.
373. 24:48Well, when the Marxists come in and they get into power,
374. 24:52they shut down everyone else.
375. 24:54And so you've seen a shutting down of everyone else.
376. 24:58And I would argue that in the case of Claudine Gay
377. 25:01and various black people that we've seen elevated
378. 25:05in positions of power, it's not because they're the brightest
379. 25:09bulbs in the box, it's because they are people
380. 25:14that I'm going to say white progressives can use
381. 25:18to push the Marxist agenda.
382. 25:20And they don't have to be talented.
383. 25:22They just had to be able to espouse those Marxist talking points.
384. 25:26And in the case of Claudine Gay, she seemed to have difficulty
385. 25:32mustering up any type of empathy for the Jewish students who
386. 25:36were being harassed and threatened by the pro-Palestinian
387. 25:41pro-Hamas students.
388. 25:44That was part of her problem.
389. 25:46But she's clearly steeped in the Marxist social justice
390. 25:51as is you know katanya
391. 25:54uh... justice
392. 25:56katanya bran and
393. 25:57uh... the the various people that you've seen the by the administration the
394. 26:01racial and ethnic
395. 26:03uh... and
396. 26:04sexual minorities that they have
397. 26:06positioned
398. 26:07uh... in power
399. 26:10uh... places
400. 26:11visible
401. 26:12positions of power
402. 26:14they're not there because they're qualified necessarily they're there because
403. 26:18they're about
404. 26:19the right uh... views
405. 26:21Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, and it's very pervasive as you know, but ideology has eclipsed the
406. 26:31quest for truth, narrative and political agenda.
407. 26:35Well, they say that there is no truth.
408. 26:37And so they're not beholden to anything.
409. 26:39And so they don't care.
410. 26:41Yeah.
411. 26:43And I think that's why they're not willing to deal with it.
412. 26:47People also need to know that plagiarism is not a misdemeanor or felony or a crime.
413. 26:55It is something that institutions, whether it's in the field of journalism and media or
414. 27:01higher education, institutions police that themselves.
415. 27:06And so they decide that they don't care, then that standard goes out to window.
416. 27:12And if you have a society that it has no moral granting, there are no principles that there
417. 27:17willing to live or die by. Then it's a race to the bottom and that's where we are.
418. 27:28How would this have played out differently if Claudine Gay had been white?
419. 27:36I know. There are plenty of white plagiarists. In fact, I dedicate my book. Let me read the
420. 27:41dedication to you. Okay.
421. 27:48And the book is a page turner and I do have a sense of humor even though I am serious most
422. 27:55of the time.
423. 27:56So this book is for Doris turns Goodwin, Stephen E. Ambrus Kevin Cruz and Codding Gay for helping
424. 28:05to expose the deadly plague of plagiaritis that is killing academic integrity in higher
425. 28:12education.
426. 28:13Amen.
427. 28:14Plagiaritis.
428. 28:15That's a good word.
429. 28:17That's a good word.
430. 28:18academic. Yes, it is. Well, you know, do you still believe a college education is worth
431. 28:28it? You know, and say word to parents, if you would, about really warning their kids that
432. 28:38I mean, it's almost like going to college and grad school these days. You've got to
433. 28:41hold your nose if you're a conservative and certainly if you're a conservative constitutionalist
434. 28:47Christian, you've just got to hold your nose and get through it.
435. 28:51But Dr. Swain, I mean, I've counseled with so many youth that they become agnostics,
436. 28:58they turn from God, they become moral libertarians, they loathe America.
437. 29:05And I've watched college do this to a couple of generations of young people.
438. 29:12So I guess my two-fold question, is college still worth it in America?
439. 29:18And if so, how do we help our young people not become horribly warped and programmed by
440. 29:25going to America's secular institutions?
441. 29:28Well, there are a lot of things that question touches on.
442. 29:35There's polling data that shows a majority of parents and young people would be students
443. 29:43say that a college education is not worth it.
444. 29:46So people are making hard decisions.
445. 29:48I have spoken at home schooling conferences and various schools and academies and med
446. 29:54grandparents and parents who say that the money they saved up for their children's college
447. 29:59education, they're giving them a choice. They can take the money and go to college or they
448. 30:05can use that money to start a business. So that's one thing that parents are doing this
449. 30:10differently. Different. And the other thing that parents are doing is some of them are
450. 30:15investigating the colleges and universities and they're not sending their children necessarily
451. 30:21to schools that are woke, that have no free speech, that are hostile towards Christian
452. 30:27organizations. And so they're not paying for an education where the kid necessarily wants
453. 30:35to go. They're doing more oversight on the institutions. But I can tell you that many
454. 30:41of our Christian colleges universities are Christian and name only. They've been infiltrated
455. 30:47and taken over pretty much by the Marxist. The president of the university and some of
456. 30:53the spokespeople may sound like Christian during orientation,
457. 30:58but day to day, that's not what they're about.
458. 31:01And so you can't assume that if you send your child
459. 31:04to a Christian Academy or to a Christian college,
460. 31:08that they're going to be getting values that you believe in.
461. 31:13And so it's like the buyer, be aware,
462. 31:18that's what's taking place in America.
463. 31:20And so I can't flatly say there are some occupations
464. 31:24that people may feel called to be in
465. 31:28that you have to have a college degree.
466. 31:31And there's some young people that are so grounded
467. 31:34in their faith that they realize when they step on the campus
468. 31:39of one of these secular institutions
469. 31:41that they're on the enemy's territory.
470. 31:44If they stay in church or find a church soon
471. 31:48after they get to college and they are involved and they have a family away from their family
472. 31:55in the town where they're living, they're more likely not to lose their faith. Otherwise,
473. 32:02young people from strong Christian homes, they can go to one of the secular colleges
474. 32:08by Thanksgiving their questioning their faith and by Christmas their atheist.
475. 32:12Hey, we've got a break. I want to thank you for your time. I do hope we can speak against
476. 32:17What is your website?
477. 32:20CarolMSwain.com. I'm very active on X or Twitter.
478. 32:27My Twitter handle is at CarolMSwain.
479. 32:32And I have a site called Be The People News.
480. 32:36So I'm quite active on social media and would encourage people to follow me if you can.
481. 32:43I'm sorry, we're out of time on this segment.
482. 32:46So stay tuned, we're gonna come back and take calls.
483. 32:49Triple eight, 589-8840.
484. 32:51God bless you.
485. 32:52Thank you, Dr. Swain.
486. 33:00A Hamilton Quarter podcast and one-minute comment
487. 33:03terrace are available at aFR.net.
488. 33:06Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
489. 33:13Welcome back to the program.
490. 33:15I do wanna be able to take some calls.
491. 33:17If you've got questions about just the state of academia,
492. 33:22or why young people walk away from the church after high school sometimes. If you want to
493. 33:29call in I would love to speak with you it's Triple 8 5 8 9 88 40 Triple 8 5 8 9 88 40.
494. 33:39You know I want to mention a book that I saw somewhat some years ago during the Clinton
495. 33:47years. Do you remember the Monica Lewinsky scandal? Because you know I don't know I just
496. 33:51look back over the time that I've been politically aware.
497. 33:56And I mean, think about this, folks.
498. 33:57You remember some things from the early 70s.
499. 34:00I remember the Watergate hearings.
500. 34:03And for years after that, Richard Nixon and some of the Nixon
501. 34:10cabinet were always cited if people said
502. 34:15they didn't trust the government anymore,
503. 34:17or all politicians or liars.
504. 34:19and then along comes Ronald Reagan and they said, you know, they called him Ronald Reagan
505. 34:25because Reagan, you know, piece through strength, you know, they said Reagan will get us into
506. 34:30World War III.
507. 34:31Then when I was in college, I well remember in the late 80s how my professors at the University
508. 34:39of North Carolina at Greensboro, they said, conservatives were contributing to the environment.
509. 34:44You know, if we don't have a radical environmental legislation, the human race will be dead in
510. 34:5020 years, and that's been 35 years ago.
511. 34:55Well, anyway, go back to the Lewinsky scandal.
512. 34:59Do you remember that?
513. 35:00And my point in sharing all this is I submit to you that our tolerance for falsehood was
514. 35:08really escalated during the Clinton years.
515. 35:11And let me explain.
516. 35:12book and I can't remember the author's name but it was called the Liars Tale, T-A-L-E, the
517. 35:20Liars Tale, A History of Falsehood and we know the Bible tells us thou shalt not lie.
518. 35:27You know all the moral codes throughout history from Hammurabi to the Ten Commandments to all
519. 35:37of the great moral codes that comprise not only the Western world, but civilization all
520. 35:45over, include prohibitions against lying.
521. 35:49We have a whole lexicon of legal words that go along with this like slander or perjury.
522. 35:55And in academia, as Dr. Swain so adeptly pointed out, we can't copy somebody else and
523. 36:04say it was our own.
524. 36:05In fact, even, I remember in publishing for folks on the family and then the Lord's allowed me
525. 36:13to write quite a number of books, even if you're going to quote somebody or maybe put a paragraph
526. 36:20in brackets.
527. 36:21I mean, there's a word count that you're not supposed to go beyond.
528. 36:25I mean, citing a source, it goes from research to just flat out stealing if you cut and paste
529. 36:35too much. But anyway, during the Lewinsky affair, you'll all remember how Bill Clinton, they
530. 36:41quibbled over what is the definition of sex. And even they got down to the minutiae, the
531. 36:48picayune wording of what does is mean. Do you remember, I mean, you think about that. A
532. 36:54president, first of all, I mean, it was just, it got to where you couldn't watch the six
533. 36:59of the clock news in front of people because it was just embarrassing talking about DNA
534. 37:07material on a blue dress.
535. 37:10I mean, how unseemly that the occupant of the Oval Office would be subpoenaed to testify
536. 37:17about unspeakable things he was doing with White House intern, you know, decades younger
537. 37:24than himself.
538. 37:25But here's the thing in that book that talks about all this, how really Bill Clinton's ethics
539. 37:32or lack thereof just kind of made it okay to lie.
540. 37:39And the author of that book was named Jeremy Campbell, by the way, thanks to Bobby Rosa
541. 37:43and my production staff, the Liars Tail.
542. 37:45All right, here's the thing.
543. 37:48Jeremy Campbell in the Liars' Tale said, Bill Clinton elevated lying to an art form.
544. 37:55Can you think about that?
545. 37:57That's a witty observation, but that's a sad commentary, isn't it?
546. 38:02People, they fudge or they bend the truth.
547. 38:06No, a lie.
548. 38:09And I would submit that ever since then, and now it's 30 years removed, but really the
549. 38:16president of the United States at that time, William Jefferson, Blythe Clinton, Bill Clinton,
550. 38:23you know, oral sex is not sex. And I remember, and I was a youth pastor for 11 years, kids
551. 38:32would ask, you know, and I'm not trying to push the envelope here of propriety, but suddenly
552. 38:39even Christian kids were asking, if one engages in oral sex, have they lost their virginity?
553. 38:52What am I saying here?
554. 38:53I'm saying it was almost like rather than turn from sin and pursue righteousness, there
555. 39:00was this mindset almost of how far can I push the envelope and get involved in things I
556. 39:06I know aren't right, but it not be sin.
557. 39:09Rather than how moral can I be,
558. 39:13it was how immoral can I be, but not feel bad about it.
559. 39:17And now lying, plagiarism, my goodness,
560. 39:21Harvard calling Claudine Gay's ripoff
561. 39:26of the work of Dr. Carol Swam,
562. 39:28calling it duplicative language without attribution.
563. 39:32Listen, you can dress it up in any sophisticated jargon
564. 39:36of your choice, lying is still lying, stealing is still stealing, plagiarism is still plagiarism.
565. 39:44Now what will be the voice or voices that call a culture not only to accountability but back
566. 39:52to honesty, integrity, ethics, morality, it's got to be the church.
567. 39:59I had a friend and he was a friend, not only a colleague but a friend and he spoke for us
568. 40:04many times in our conferences. Charles Colson, Chuck Colson, he went to prison for his participation
569. 40:12in Watergate, got saved, largely reading mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. And he became a
570. 40:19great biblical worldview proponent, a defender of the faith. He spoke for us, he was very gracious.
571. 40:25You know, before he knew the Lord around Washington, Chuck Colson was known as a very tough guy. And
572. 40:31and they called him Nixon's Hatchet Man.
573. 40:35And I just, I knew him as just not only brilliant
574. 40:39but a very tender hearted, just such a godly individual.
575. 40:42But Chuck Colson would often say that the church
576. 40:45is the conscience of the culture.
577. 40:48I mean, who is going to gently but consistently
578. 40:53call our culture and especially young people
579. 40:55to that which is good and right and true and beautiful?
580. 40:59It's gotta be the church.
581. 41:01Look, it's not going to be that evil triumvirate, the world, the flesh and the devil.
582. 41:07Are they going to call people to truth, morality, fidelity, keeping one's word?
583. 41:13You know what, folks, if you want to call in, I'd love to hear from you, Triple Eight,
584. 41:18589, 8840.
585. 41:19Listen to this, we have in America, and this goes back to the fact that we are founded on
586. 41:25biblical principles.
587. 41:26We are a Judeo-Christian representative republic.
588. 41:30We have, in addition to personal property ownership rights, we have what are called deeds
589. 41:37and covenants.
590. 41:38Isn't that something?
591. 41:39Now, that's the world over.
592. 41:41But at the time of the American Revolution and really for the first century of our existence,
593. 41:46if you wanted to own your own land, if you wanted to have a house and a man's home is
594. 41:54this castle, that's why we have what's called the castle doctrine, you can defend your property.
595. 41:59Well we had what are called covenants.
596. 42:02Well that goes back to the biblical,
597. 42:04remembering the book of Genesis,
598. 42:06Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 21,
599. 42:09when God called Abraham and God made a covenant.
600. 42:14Well listen to this, the word covenant,
601. 42:16do you know what it means?
602. 42:18It means to cut a cut.
603. 42:20You say what in the world does that mean?
604. 42:22Well when God made the promises to Abraham,
605. 42:26threefold promise seed, soil, and Savior. You're going to be a great nation everywhere
606. 42:33your foot treads. I'm going to give you that land. And through you Abraham, all the families
607. 42:38of the earth will be blessed. So seed, soil, and Savior. And by the way, that alliteration
608. 42:44comes from Dr. Harold Wilmington. While we're giving attribution, that is not original with
609. 42:50me, the late, great Dr. H. L. Wilmington professor at Liberty University, he came up with that.
610. 42:57But here's my point. God said, here's how we're going to do this. And I want to, this is very
611. 43:03important on what a covenant means and why it's important to stand true to one's word. They
612. 43:09cut a dove in pieces. And God and Abraham to ratify the covenant, they walked between
613. 43:19the pieces. Now what does this mean? See what they were saying was, may that be what happens
614. 43:25to me if I bail out on my end of this promise in marriage we say till death do us part. In
615. 43:33other words, I would rather die than bail out on the pledge, the commitment I'm making.
616. 43:40We're a nation of covenants, truth and commitment and we've got to get back to that. Are you
617. 43:48a person of truth? You know, the Bible tells us in Matthew 633, seek first the kingdom of
618. 43:55God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. Do you know, and I see
619. 44:02we have a couple of callers. I'm going to do my best to get into the calls if they get
620. 44:08potted up on the board. But Carol Swain's situation there being plagiarized and then
621. 44:16when it was called out and people all over America, and I well remember it.
622. 44:22They were exposing that Claudine Gay had stolen from her.
623. 44:28It was the victim, Carol Swain, that was in many media outlets, cast gated, blame the victim,
624. 44:36exonerate the perpetrator.
625. 44:39That's Isaiah 5, those who call good evil and evil good.
626. 44:43We're going to go to Mississippi, Lauren in Mississippi.
627. 44:47Lauren, thanks for holding.
628. 44:49Welcome to the program.
629. 44:51Hi.
630. 44:53Well, I had a question for you.
631. 44:54Our board did ask it last week and didn't make it.
632. 44:59Anyway, I don't remember what the conversation was about last week,
633. 45:03but you were talking about Bill Clinton now.
634. 45:07And I'm from Arkansas and was not happy with them
635. 45:13in their politics.
636. 45:15Right.
637. 45:16But how come methane was done to Hillary Clinton
638. 45:22over her computer and documents she had at home
639. 45:30and her trying her bed level best to put Trump
640. 45:37as being colluding with the Russian
641. 45:40when it was all made up on her side?
642. 45:44Yeah, why have the Clintons never been brought to justice about so many of the things?
643. 45:49And you know what folks, I know you've probably not thought of these things in years.
644. 45:55Whitewater, travel gate, do you remember that?
645. 45:58The death of Vince Foster, and there were all sorts of allegations around that.
646. 46:02The defaming of like Paula Jones and Monica, I'm sorry, Jennifer Flowers, and then one
647. 46:10One of the big ones was Filegate, and I don't know if you guys remember this, but Hillary
648. 46:16Clinton had the housekeeper handling hard drives and classified government documents.
649. 46:25Many of those documents that were not supposed to be taken out of official government secured
650. 46:32areas.
651. 46:33And then erasing hard drive, I mean, it's been said it's not original with me, but the
652. 46:40The Clintons were just a crime wave in and of themselves.
653. 46:45Why was Hillary Clinton never brought to justice?
654. 46:48I don't know.
655. 46:50Power and money that seems to turn certain figures into Teflon.
656. 46:56And then you've got President Trump that clearly, even those that are on the left, have said
657. 47:03that the way that Clinton, I mean the way that Donald Trump has just been charged with so many
658. 47:10just bogus things, the weaponization of the DOJ for political purposes.
659. 47:16Lauren, I don't know other than this to say that we need to drain the swamp humanly.
660. 47:23But the other thing is whether it be O.J. Simpson, and by the way, we're all sinners.
661. 47:28If you're a Christian, you're a safe sinner.
662. 47:30But I think about, you know, O.J. Simpson,
663. 47:33and I think about high-profile figures
664. 47:36that have committed crimes.
665. 47:37I think about the Bidens, the Clintons.
666. 47:40There's one bar of justice from which they will not escape.
667. 47:43And that's the judgment of God.
668. 47:46And folks, what am I saying?
669. 47:48Well, the church and Christians must be people of truth,
670. 47:51the conscience of the culture, and tell people,
671. 47:54you know, be saved, live right.
672. 47:57Get saved, get right, get going, because the Bible says in Hebrews 922, it's appointed
673. 48:04unto man once to die, but after this is a judgment.
674. 48:08And the Bible says God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish.
675. 48:11Lauren, thank you for that great question.
676. 48:13Don't really have a definitive answer.
677. 48:15But I want to say this, thanks for listening.
678. 48:18Thanks to our guest Dr. Carol Swain.
679. 48:20And one and all may you have a joyous, Jesus filled Christmas.
680. 48:24Hey, be in church, get somebody into the sound of the gospel, and thank God for his unspeakable gift in Jesus.
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