Guest Host, Jenna Ellis, is joined by Mike Donnelly, Vice President for yes. every kid. foundation.

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be His ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28and now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:31Good evening and welcome to the Hamilton Corner.
12. 0:35I'm Jenna Ellis filling in this evening
13. 0:38for Abraham Hamilton the third
14. 0:39and always a pleasure and a privilege to do so.
15. 0:43When he asks, so great to be with you this evening.
16. 0:47And you know, as he always says,
17. 0:49and I love listening to his program
18. 0:50and I always kind of, and you guys can rat on me
19. 0:54if he's not listening to this,
20. 0:55then say that I always affectionately refer to it
21. 0:58this pooh corner instead of the Hamilton corner because I grew up with one of the
22. 1:02people and I just love it. And and he's so kind. So I always call it the pooh corner.
23. 1:07But when I tune in, then he's always saying of course that we are focusing on
24. 1:13our primary ministries and making our way most people at this moment or making
25. 1:20their way home from work and leaving their part-time occupations to go to their
26. 1:26full-time occupation, which of course is to be with their family. And I love how
27. 1:31he frames that and how he always encourages all of us to live locally and
28. 1:36to be very involved in our local church and of course especially our local
29. 1:43families and how important that is. And it's so important in the context of our
30. 1:49civil government and how we understand how law works and touches and concerns
31. 1:55every aspect of our lives. And one of the just really, really, really difficult questions
32. 2:05that society is wrestling with right now is with the Lindsey Clancy case. And I know that
33. 2:11that will not be a foreign name to those of you who are listening right now, because
34. 2:16this has been in the news for the last several months, but especially the last a little
35. 2:22but almost a month that this trial has been going on where this mother just
36. 2:30absolutely horrifically murdered her three children and the question in the
37. 2:37case is not who was responsible like most murders the question is did this
38. 2:44person do it or not the question here legally is not who did it because a
39. 2:49Lindsay Clancy's defense team is not contesting that.
40. 2:52They fully have stipulated that she is the one
41. 2:56who killed her children, but rather the question,
42. 2:59is whether or not she should be criminally responsible
43. 3:03for her acts.
44. 3:04And you might say, well, wait a minute, of course,
45. 3:07she should, because when someone murders their child,
46. 3:11how could they possibly not be criminally responsible for that?
47. 3:14Well, it's a very good question.
48. 3:16And what the defense is asserting is that she was under such a psychosis through a postpartum
49. 3:25depression and other mental health issues that she was facing, that during this particular
50. 3:35time, allegedly, and according to the defense, she heard a voice that was telling her to
51. 3:41commit these murders and this psychosis happened only then and it has not
52. 3:47apparently happened since, but when she was under this kind of psychosis and
53. 3:53this delusion, she didn't appreciate the nature of her actions and so society
54. 4:01should not hold her criminally responsible and and the obvious inference
55. 4:06of that is that she would not be morally responsible.
56. 4:10And that's really the question that society needs to ask,
57. 4:16because mental illness is a very hot button issue right now,
58. 4:23especially as we see the rise of the statistics
59. 4:27of how many people are taking psychotropic drugs,
60. 4:32they're taking SSRIs,
61. 4:33taking even anxiety medication saying that they've been diagnosed.
62. 4:38They're more diagnoses in the psychological DSA handbook than there ever have been.
63. 4:46And it's a question of whether we actually hold people responsible for their actions,
64. 4:54even when they may suffer some mental health issue or some other kind of psychosis or diagnosis.
65. 5:03And the interesting thing to me, and I haven't listened to every minute of the trial, obviously,
66. 5:08I've had other work, but I've been following it closely.
67. 5:11And what's fascinating to me is that neither side really can prove or disprove to a certainty
68. 5:20that this mental health issue and this psychosis actually existed at the time that she committed
69. 5:28the murders.
70. 5:29And I think that's very important for a couple of reasons.
71. 5:32first because overall we should be able to prove, and in fact the law requires the prosecution
72. 5:40to prove, each of the elements of the alleged crime beyond any and all reasonable doubt.
73. 5:47That's the burden of proof in a prosecutorial setting.
74. 5:51And of course Abe knows this, you know, better than him, he was a prosecutor.
75. 5:54I'm a former prosecutor as well.
76. 5:57And that's something that the prosecution, that's part of the job and the responsibility.
77. 6:05And when a defendant asserts what's called an affirmative defense, a complete defense,
78. 6:12it's not just saying, I didn't do it as a defense.
79. 6:15It's actually saying because of this defense that I am asserting, then there is a legal justification
80. 6:24for my conduct.
81. 6:26I'm admitting the conduct, but the law should excuse me for this reason.
82. 6:32If that affirmative defense cannot be disproven by the prosecution, they have that added
83. 6:39burden to disprove an affirmative defense, then the jury is told you should render a
84. 6:44verdict if not guilty.
85. 6:45For example, there is a legal defense of self-defense.
86. 6:52If you assert that and you say, yes, I did this, but it was in the context of self-defense,
87. 6:59then you're raising a defense.
88. 7:01And different states have it a little differently.
89. 7:05And Massachusetts law is usually a lot more favorable to the insanity defense once that
90. 7:12issue is properly raised, it then qualifies for this added level of an affirmative defense.
91. 7:20so then the state must prove criminal responsibility
92. 7:25beyond a reasonable doubt.
93. 7:27And so that then brings me to my second point,
94. 7:30which is why would we as a society allow
95. 7:35these types of mental health affirmative defenses?
96. 7:40Because something like self-defense,
97. 7:42you can still prove based on circumstantial evidence,
98. 7:45video evidence, testimony of other people around there,
99. 7:49It's a lot more concrete where the mental health defense,
100. 7:54obviously you can have a testimony of her husband,
101. 7:56of friends who observed her of the psychiatrist
102. 8:00that diagnosed her or prescribed things,
103. 8:03but you can't actually get inside of her head
104. 8:07or have any sort of medical type of validation
105. 8:12of this psychosis.
106. 8:14And obviously I'm not a doctor,
107. 8:16I'm speaking more in layman's terms in the context of the legal, but it's very difficult to prove or to
108. 8:23disprove and
109. 8:25the fact that we as a society are suggesting that a
110. 8:31mother who who has of her own defense team's admission
111. 8:37that she has committed such heinous acts as the the utterly horrific
112. 8:45deaths of and murders of her three children and and this was not you know
113. 8:50just one one act I mean these were these were intentional I think the
114. 8:55evidence shows it was a span of 18 minutes that it took her I'm not gonna go
115. 9:02until the details because I know this is you know so American family radio but
116. 9:06but it if you look at the details of this case it's gruesome and it's just so
117. 9:11incredibly depraved. And as a society, should we say, well, you know, based on
118. 9:17this mental health issue that we really don't know a lot about and that we can't
119. 9:22actually prove a voice or not a voice and we can't really prove it, we can't really
120. 9:28disprove it, we are going to then say as a society, as a civil government, that we
121. 9:35are going to remove criminal liability from it. I think that opens the floodgates
122. 9:41of so many people suggesting, well, I wasn't in my right mind, or I had a breakdown of some sort,
123. 9:49or, you know, on a ton of different medications, or, you know, a lot of different excuses to say
124. 9:56that their criminal act should not be punishable with accountability. So I would be very much in
125. 10:04favor of the law overall and obviously very state by state, but the law in general to a
126. 10:13hold people regardless of their mental health status, you know, whatever the doctors and
127. 10:19the psychiatrists and all of them are saying, regardless of that, hold them criminally responsible
128. 10:25for their acts and only have the diagnosis and all of these experts that are clashing
129. 10:32in debating, have that come in an only be relevant either in contemplation of a potential plea
130. 10:42agreement so the prosecutor could take that into account, could, or in the context of sentencing.
131. 10:50In the context of sentencing, there are still mitigating factors that the defense can present.
132. 10:56still aggravating factors that you know the state can argue for a higher increased
133. 11:02sentence after trial and that seems to me to be so much more appropriate especially
134. 11:11in the context of a case like this one where it really is difficult to prove and
135. 11:16what what the what the state and the law in Massachusetts is requiring of the
136. 11:22prosecution is so much higher of a standard because they're actually having to prove criminal
137. 11:30responsibility as well beyond a reasonable doubt.
138. 11:34And we often only talk about the concept of jury nullification in the context of defense,
139. 11:41because that's really where this concept applies, where even if the state proves every element
140. 11:49beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury is like, you know, yeah, the person's guilty.
141. 11:52If a guilty verdict would still offend justice, and of course that, you know, is up to a jury
142. 11:59determination, the jury can still render a verdict of not guilty.
143. 12:03Now the defense isn't allowed to argue that as plainly as I'm talking about the doctrine
144. 12:09of jury nullification, but that still exists because the jury ultimately can render their
145. 12:16verdict on where the facts and evidence to them lead.
146. 12:20This is one element that's embedded in our system to prevent abusive prosecutions and
147. 12:28abuse by the state.
148. 12:30Just like pardons or clemency that governors and presidents can grant, that is a last measure
149. 12:37of justice when the system fails.
150. 12:40So during nullification, the principle of it, in my view, should also attach where the law
151. 12:47is designed generally to catch general behavior and criminalize it and punish it.
152. 12:55And then it's also meant to exclude generally certain behaviors in conducts or allow for
153. 13:01certain justifications or excuses, even when the person committed the act, like a self-defense
154. 13:08type of situation. And I don't think that if you asked, and I have to go back and read
155. 13:14the legislative history and all of that of this law, but I don't think that legislators
156. 13:19in general contemplate when they are opening the affirmative defense to insanity, that
157. 13:28they contemplate that a woman could spend 18 minutes individually murdering her own
158. 13:36children and somehow escape criminal liability.
159. 13:41That just on its face, I don't care what else the 27 days trial have said, that offends
160. 13:48the notions of justice because justice requires that the state punish evil doers.
161. 13:56This was evil.
162. 13:58However you look at Lindsey Clancy, whether you have sympathy for her of what state she
163. 14:05must have been in in order to commit these acts, there will never be a way that we can
164. 14:10wrap our minds around something so heinous.
165. 14:13But the point is it is evil and it absolutely must be punished in a just, a moral, and an
166. 14:21upright society.
167. 14:22And I don't think that the law should ever allow for a scenario where the law as applied
168. 14:30allows for any type of justification or excuse based on something that is so, so vague.
169. 14:37So we will be right back with more. I'm Jenna Ellis. I'm filling in for the Great Abraham Hamilton the third.
170. 14:42And this is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio. We will be right back.
171. 15:00A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker. Someone beginning at verse one, it tells us these words.
172. 15:06Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
173. 15:11or stands in the way of sinners, or sits in the seat of scoffers,
174. 15:15but his delight is in the law of the Lord,
175. 15:18and on his law he meditates day and night.
176. 15:23The most powerful weapon in the universe is the word of God,
177. 15:26which is also known as the sword of the Spirit.
178. 15:30As a believer spends time reading and meditating on the word of God,
179. 15:34He or she is fortifying their mind, body, and spirit
180. 15:37against the attacks of the kingdom of darkness.
181. 15:41Time reading and meditating on God's word
182. 15:43prepares us to step out onto the battlefield of life
183. 15:46to walk in victory.
184. 15:48We as believers are wise to make it a high priority
185. 15:52to read and meditate on the word of God
186. 15:54every single day of our lives.
187. 16:05Shiting light into the darkness,
188. 16:07this is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
189. 16:11Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner this evening.
190. 16:14I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham Hamilton the third.
191. 16:17You can normally hear my program, Jenna Ellis,
192. 16:19in the morning here on American Family Radio Network
193. 16:22from eight to nine Eastern, seven to eight Central Time.
194. 16:27And we covered this story this morning,
195. 16:30but for those of you who didn't tune in,
196. 16:32why didn't you tune in?
197. 16:34But also we want to make sure that you are aware
198. 16:37this is such an important issue
199. 16:39and a very fascinating one as well.
200. 16:41This was an opinion piece by our friend Cory Deangelis,
201. 16:44who's a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation,
202. 16:47and it's titled, Are Public Schools Unconstitutional?
203. 16:51A Nebraska court will decide.
204. 16:53So there is a challenge to compulsory education combined
205. 16:58with public school only funding
206. 17:01that could lead to universal school choice.
207. 17:05So a Nebraska law requires parents to enroll children
208. 17:08in a public, private, denominational, or parochial school, or to homeschool them.
209. 17:14Noncompliance is a Class III misdemeanor punishable by up to three months in jail and a $500 fine,
210. 17:21yet the state offers educational benefits roughly $19,000 per student statewide as of 2024 to 2025,
211. 17:31and only two families that enroll their children in public schools or government funded schools,
212. 17:38thus accepting the government's preferred viewpoints.
213. 17:43So now this is being challenged
214. 17:46and the parents complaints rest on a couple
215. 17:49of very interesting theories.
216. 17:51So to break this down, let's welcome in Mike Donnelly
217. 17:54who is an attorney.
218. 17:56You can follow him on X at Donnelly Speaks.
219. 17:59He was formerly with the homeschool legal defense association.
220. 18:02So it's been in the space for education
221. 18:06and defending parental right to direct and control
222. 18:10the education of their children.
223. 18:11He's a home school father himself,
224. 18:13so all of the great things.
225. 18:14And most importantly, of course, relevant to this program
226. 18:19has been a friend and mentor of mine for over 10 years now,
227. 18:24which I think is a little bit wild.
228. 18:26But Mike, thanks so much for joining me.
229. 18:28And let's talk about this case.
230. 18:31Hey Jenna, it's great to be with you.
231. 18:32And you did a great job filling in for Abraham.
232. 18:35and it's wonderful to be talking with all of Abraham's listeners.
233. 18:38Hope everyone's having a great afternoon evening, wherever you are.
234. 18:42If you're listening on the podcast, fantastic.
235. 18:44And of course, you can listen to Jen on the podcast too.
236. 18:46You don't have to, you know, seven to eight in the morning is a great time,
237. 18:50but or eight to nine or whatever wherever you are,
238. 18:52but you can listen on the podcast too.
239. 18:53Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for the, uh, for all of the shout out there.
240. 18:59But yeah, yeah. Go ahead and break this down for us.
241. 19:02Let's talk about choice, right?
242. 19:04So let's just be real clear.
243. 19:05I'm a homeschooled dad, you are homeschooled grad,
244. 19:08and parents already have a choice
245. 19:10on how they wanna educate their children.
246. 19:12Parents can send their kids to a private school,
247. 19:15a Christian school, homeschool,
248. 19:18of course you got the public schools, right?
249. 19:19And so everybody, we do have choices today.
250. 19:22But what this case is challenging is, and it's novel.
251. 19:26It's really a cool, interesting challenge.
252. 19:30The ideas was thought up by Phil Hamburger,
253. 19:33who's a Columbia law professor.
254. 19:35He's a dad and he's done a lot of work
255. 19:39advancing a constitutional reformation, shall we say?
256. 19:43He's written books about the administrative state
257. 19:46and how to combat the administrative state.
258. 19:48He started an organization called the New Civil Liberties
259. 19:50Alliance, which is taking these kinds of cases
260. 19:54and challenging unconstitutional laws
261. 19:58and unconstitutional practices.
262. 20:00And here he is taking aim at public education.
263. 20:05And the question, our public school is unconstitutional.
264. 20:09Well, what is he talking about?
265. 20:11Well, here's what the theory is.
266. 20:13So we have the First Amendment of the US Constitution,
267. 20:16which protects freedom of speech,
268. 20:17but incorporated within that idea
269. 20:19of being free to speak whatever you want.
270. 20:22You've got parents who are responsible
271. 20:26to exercise the right of free speech for their kids.
272. 20:30And that doesn't mean what kids want to speak,
273. 20:32but within that right of free speech,
274. 20:33there is also this idea that you should not be subject
275. 20:38to speech based on compulsion.
276. 20:43So what happens?
277. 20:44We have our kids, we send them to public school,
278. 20:46they go in there,
279. 20:47and do they have a choice about what the teacher says?
280. 20:50Do they, no, they don't.
281. 20:51Do parents have much choices?
282. 20:53No, we don't.
283. 20:54the kids are subject to whatever the government decides they want to say to those children.
284. 21:00We know what they're saying to those children. They're advancing these crazy ideas of transgenderism
285. 21:05and gender ideology and all kinds of things. Parents should not have to have their children
286. 21:16subject to that speech based on compulsion. That's what Phil is arguing. That's based
287. 21:23There's also this theory called unconstitutional conditions.
288. 21:26So the theory of unconstitutional conditions says that the government cannot condition a
289. 21:33public benefit on a unconstitutional condition.
290. 21:38What's the unconstitutional condition?
291. 21:40That you have to send your kids to school and subject them to this mandatory government
292. 21:46speech that you don't agree with or you're potentially liable for a criminal offense of
293. 21:54truancy.
294. 21:55Okay.
295. 21:56So he's saying that is not okay in the United States of America.
296. 21:59And so he's challenging that in Nebraska.
297. 22:02And you know, it's in state court and I think this case is going to go up to the US Supreme
298. 22:07Court at some point and boy, it's going to be really interesting.
299. 22:10Yeah.
300. 22:11And I really appreciate that breakdown.
301. 22:13And it was occurring to me is, you know, we're talking through this again, and I'm, you know,
302. 22:18I'm hearing the overall discussion points of compulsion.
303. 22:24I mean, there really is not any other aspect of that I can think of, and, you know, and
304. 22:32you can think of one, let me know, that the government taxes you, then they provide a
305. 22:38service that they require you to to partake of if you want to get any of that money back
306. 22:45and you're required to participate in a service of that type. I mean this almost seems vaguely
307. 22:51similar to why you know the whole the whole health care debate was such a big issue and
308. 22:57saying that you know if we are compelling people to have health care in America and they
309. 23:02they don't actually have a free choice.
310. 23:05And so to have this issue of not only
311. 23:10are they is the government taxing us,
312. 23:13but then they're compelling parents to a school option.
313. 23:18And then they're saying, in here, we're providing one
314. 23:20that will provide for free, but we'll give you some
315. 23:25of the money back only if you accept our particular viewpoint.
316. 23:30I mean, it just seems like in every angle of this,
317. 23:34it runs afoul to all of the principles
318. 23:38of the Constitution and frankly, liberty,
319. 23:41that we've been accustomed to here in America.
320. 23:44Well, we've become accustomed to
321. 23:48is just taking whatever the government gives us.
322. 23:50And what Phil is challenging here is like,
323. 23:52no, we shouldn't have to do that.
324. 23:55Public education has a long history.
325. 23:57Compulsory education laws have been around
326. 23:59for about 125 years.
327. 24:00I think compulsory tenants laws are terrible.
328. 24:04That is not what the founders intended
329. 24:05when they talk about supporting education for the public.
330. 24:08They didn't mean compelling parents to send their children
331. 24:12to a government run monopoly.
332. 24:15Okay, they were talking about the government funding
333. 24:18any kind of education, which is kind of what Phil Hammerger,
334. 24:21I think what his vision is,
335. 24:24look, if you're gonna take money out of my pocket
336. 24:26and use it for this common good of education,
337. 24:30then I should be able to decide how my child is educated.
338. 24:34I should not be penalized the way I'm being penalized.
339. 24:37Everyone is essentially being penalized
340. 24:40to have their property taxes or their income taxes
341. 24:43or sales taxes or the lottery for goodness sake.
342. 24:45I mean, how many states actually use lottery money
343. 24:50to fund education?
344. 24:52Like I think that's a problem.
345. 24:53That's gambling.
346. 24:54You want gambling to fund public schools?
347. 24:57That's how the gambling industry has been able
348. 24:59to get so many
349. 25:00communities to go along with them
350. 25:02is like all will give them any of the public schools and of course the union
351. 25:05to love that like yes more money for us
352. 25:07who doesn't like some you know blackjack and will fund the kids you know
353. 25:11that's not okay in my opinion
354. 25:13uh... but what phil is doing here in this lawsuit is he is saying look
355. 25:17all we want
356. 25:19is for the court to declare that this is unconstitutional
357. 25:22that it's an unconstitutional situation
358. 25:25for the the government to force me to subject my child to government
359. 25:29speech that I disagree with and take the money away from me and oh by the way, impose a potential
360. 25:35criminal liability on me if I don't send my child to that school because not everybody
361. 25:40is gone home school and not everybody can afford to send their child to a private school and
362. 25:44what are they left with this.
363. 25:46So Phil thinks this is wrong and it's going to be very interesting to watch this case.
364. 25:51I think this is going to initiate a very important conversation we need to have in our country
365. 25:55about how we do education because we've been doing it wrong for a long time.
366. 26:00Jenna, you know, look, parents who are listening right now, Christian parents, these are the
367. 26:05people who know that they have an obligation to provide their children with a Christian
368. 26:09education and they're doing it whether their child is in a public, a private or through
369. 26:14homeschooling.
370. 26:15It's a lot easier to do it, I think, if you homeschool or send your child to a Christian
371. 26:18school.
372. 26:19But, you know, look, there's lots of parents whose children go to public school and they
373. 26:23come out well and their faith is intact. The odds are against them, the research is pretty
374. 26:29clear on that and there are lots of other reasons why you might not want to send your child to
375. 26:33a public school, but it is our Christian parents' responsibility to ensure that our children
376. 26:39receive a Christian education and that can be done in a variety of things. But again, this
377. 26:42is about is it right, is it fair for the government to take this money, use compulsion and criminality
378. 26:53to then force people to send their kids to public schools
379. 26:57under these conditions.
380. 26:58That's what we're gonna find out.
381. 26:59Yeah, and it is an important and necessary conversation
382. 27:03in the context of education, parental rights,
383. 27:06and also as you've been describing a government compulsion
384. 27:11because we were talking in the break
385. 27:13about government compulsion,
386. 27:15and we've seen how that has been used and abused
387. 27:18even in the context of the COVID mandates
388. 27:22and saying the government is going to compel you as a parent
389. 27:27to allow your children to have this shot otherwise,
390. 27:32they were potentially looking at criminal consequences.
391. 27:35I mean, that was contemplated during COVID.
392. 27:37I mean, certainly there were other consequences
393. 27:39like loss of job or income and some of this,
394. 27:41but really it boils down to what authority
395. 27:44does the government have for these types of compulsory measures
396. 27:49over and above parental rights.
397. 27:54Yeah, and you talked about healthcare before,
398. 27:56you know, Obamacare was an attempt to impose mandate
399. 28:00for people to purchase insurance
400. 28:02and then penalize them if they didn't do it.
401. 28:04You know, we have vaccine mandates that exist today
402. 28:07in schools also, which is a problem.
403. 28:09And what does the government do?
404. 28:11It exempts manufacturers of vaccines from liability.
405. 28:15What could go wrong?
406. 28:16Why do you think we went from nine vaccines
407. 28:19on the schedule to 72 on the schedule, because it's billions and billions of dollars to the
408. 28:24pharmaceutical companies.
409. 28:25And they figured out that if they can get into that compulsory education system and make it
410. 28:31a condition that kids who go into that system have to have these shots, they can make billions
411. 28:38of dollars, which is what has happened.
412. 28:40So when you talk about the government compelling people to do things that could be against their
413. 28:44convictions, teaching ideas, philosophies, to children that we as parents disagree with and
414. 28:53don't have any other option, it's a real problem. And so it's wrong. So we got it, we got to stop
415. 28:59doing it this way. And I think, you know, I'm really excited about this lawsuit. I hope it's
416. 29:03going to initiate that conversation that we need to have in this country. And hopefully we will
417. 29:08actually put some pressure on change. And, you know, the desired change that I think
418. 29:13like, Cordy Angeles wants, he talks about universal school choice, he's talking about
419. 29:17giving people the money and letting them decide where the money goes.
420. 29:20Okay, I don't know that that is what's going to happen.
421. 29:23I think courts are much less likely to tell the legislature, you've got to do it this way
422. 29:30versus saying, look, you can't require people or compel them to send their children.
423. 29:37So maybe getting rid of the criminal element or yeah, I don't know.
424. 29:43We're going to watch this lawsuit.
425. 29:44We'll see.
426. 29:45Hopefully we'll have opportunities to talk about it more in the future.
427. 29:47It's going to be very interesting.
428. 29:48Yeah.
429. 29:49Yeah.
430. 29:50And I think we will be talking about it more especially as it makes its way up and becomes
431. 29:55likely an issue that ends up before the Supreme Court.
432. 30:00And I think that it will just given the issues and the Supreme Court aspects of this.
433. 30:07or the U.S. Constitution aspects of it, rather.
434. 30:10And this also is raising questions as well.
435. 30:16I think overall about the government's authority in general.
436. 30:20I mean, when you're talking about,
437. 30:22when we're talking about healthcare and some of those things,
438. 30:24I mean, just even recently,
439. 30:26there's been a debate between Pennsylvania,
440. 30:29Governor Josh Shapiro and RFK Jr.
441. 30:32on the issues of, you know, big pharma and vaccine mandates and those things.
442. 30:39And Josh Shapiro is wanting to have more and more authority to the state government to be
443. 30:45able to tell people what they should do in their decision making and particularly parents.
444. 30:52And it seems like it's a fascinating conflict between the state and Josh Shapiro saying,
445. 31:00Well, I don't have to take the federal government's recommendations because I don't like the
446. 31:03Trump administration, but then in turn telling, but parents, you can't say the same thing about
447. 31:07the state's recommendations.
448. 31:08I mean, it seems like where the left wants to go is you have to follow us as long as these
449. 31:15are the experts and the outcomes and the viewpoints that we prefer.
450. 31:18And that's exactly what they're doing in the context of government funded schools.
451. 31:22Well, the left always wants to control people.
452. 31:25That's the problem with the left.
453. 31:26They want power, they want to control because they believe that they know what's best for
454. 31:31people and they're going to tell them what to do instead of letting parents make those decisions
455. 31:34to educate their children and the admonition and nurture of the Lord as Ephesians 6, 4 says,
456. 31:40as Deuteronomy 6, 4 talks about how we're teach our children when they rise up, when they
457. 31:45lie down and when they walk upon the way.
458. 31:47That is the role of parents and the left has to undermine and destroy the family because
459. 31:53the family is what points children to their creator. Most of the time, like there are
460. 31:57plenty of families that don't do that, but for the Christian family and the nuclear family,
461. 32:02that is an essential building block of a healthy society. God created it that way. And any attack
462. 32:08on that, you know where that's coming from, that's coming from the devil, because he wants
463. 32:11to destroy that which God has created. You know, that's to transgender movement, that's
464. 32:15some sexuality, it's all those things are attacks on God's plans for people.
465. 32:22So why would we be surprised by that?
466. 32:25Yeah, we shouldn't be.
467. 32:27And this is why we have to remain vigilant.
468. 32:29We have to have advocates who are willing to assert some of these challenges and we have
469. 32:34to be engaged in our civil society because law touches and concerns all of us and we
470. 32:38have to make sure that we are doing all of these things biblically and that we still
471. 32:42have the right in this country to ensure that we can follow the dictates and the wisdom
472. 32:50that comes from the Lord.
473. 32:51So Mike Donnelly, you're going to stick with me through the break.
474. 32:53We'll be right back here on the Hamilton Corner.
475. 33:00The feature-linked documentary Culture Warrior, Don Wildman, in the battle for decency chronicles
476. 33:06the life and ministry of Don Wildman.
477. 33:08It takes you through the founding of the National Federation for Decency.
478. 33:12What has become AFA?
479. 33:14a call to stand firm for righteousness and shows how that resolve can make a huge difference
480. 33:19in our world.
481. 33:21If we lose this cultural war, we're going to have a hedonistic humanistic society.
482. 33:26Find out more and watch at culturewarrior.movie.
483. 33:30I'm Tim Moore from Christ in Prophecy Radio.
484. 33:32With all the uncertainty in the world, it's good to know God's promises never change.
485. 33:36That's why each week we examine current events through the reliable lens of Bible prophecy.
486. 33:41me for Christ in Prophecy Radio, Saturdays at 1PM Central, 2PM Eastern, and Sundays at
487. 33:4611AM Central, 12PM Eastern.
488. 33:49Find out what's really going on, Saturdays at 1PM Central, 2PM Eastern, and Sundays
489. 33:53at 11AM Central, 12PM Eastern, on American Family Radio.
490. 34:00The War on Reality This is David Wheaton, host of The Christian World View.
491. 34:06It was almost one year ago that 31-year-old Christian and conservative leader Charlie
492. 34:10Kirk walked into an outdoor amphitheater at Utah Valley University to hold a question
493. 34:16and answer event with thousands of college students.
494. 34:19Minutes later, a young man named Tyler Robinson fatally shot Charlie from a rooftop sniper
495. 34:24position.
496. 34:25Robinson was a leftist, romantically involved with a gender-confused man.
497. 34:30He couldn't handle the truth, Charlie propounded.
498. 34:33Jesus said to his father, your word is truth.
499. 34:36This is what the war on reality is about.
500. 34:39You're a most recent program with Frank Turic, mentor to Charlie Kirk, an author of The War
501. 34:44on Reality at TheChristianWorldView.org and then join us this weekend for another program
502. 34:50that will sharpen your worldview.
503. 34:53Listen to The Christian World View with David Wheaton, Saturday mornings at 8th Central on
504. 34:57American Family Radio.
505. 35:00Hello this is Walker Wildman.
506. 35:02Mid-term elections are less than 90 days away.
507. 35:06will soon choose between continuing to return government to biblical values or turning away
508. 35:11from these values.
509. 35:13We could even lose the U.S. Supreme Court.
510. 35:15We could see Trump administration officials impeached by a left-wing Congress.
511. 35:20We could also see doors for righteous government continue to swing open or they could quickly
512. 35:25close.
513. 35:26You can play an important role in the upcoming election.
514. 35:29Your generous gift will help EFA action in our voter education arm, iVoterGuide, inform
515. 35:34and mobilize many more biblical voters to make an impact for Christ in the upcoming elections.
516. 35:40Every dollar you give has six times the impact due to our over 60 partner organizations spreading
517. 35:46the word about iVotarguide.
518. 35:48And we have an extensively trained volunteer outreach program.
519. 35:51To give, go to afaaction.net.
520. 35:54That's afaaction.net.
521. 35:56A F A Action.net.
522. 35:57The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Commentaries are available at afr.net.
523. 36:09to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
524. 36:14Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner.
525. 36:16I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham Hamilton the third and it's so great to be with you this
526. 36:21evening.
527. 36:22And with my special guest, Mike Donnelly, who is an attorney, you can follow him on X that
528. 36:27encourage you to do that.
529. 36:28At Donnelly Speaks, he does a lot of work in the realm of parental rights education and
530. 36:34we were talking in the last segment about this interesting lawsuit in Nebraska and how
531. 36:39this touches and concerns on parental rights issues, a lot of fascinating constitutional
532. 36:44questions.
533. 36:45And so I want to ask you, Mike, as well about the meta lawsuit.
534. 36:49So for those of you who haven't seen this headline yesterday, meta, of course, it's Mark
535. 36:54Kuzakarburg's corporation reached a landmark multi-state settlement over allegations that
536. 37:00Facebook and Instagram were deliberately designed in ways that
537. 37:05addict children in teens and harm their mental health is coming
538. 37:09from the AP. And so the bipartisan coalition is suggesting
539. 37:15that meta new and knowingly use addictive design features to
540. 37:19keep minors engaged, misrepresented the safety of its
541. 37:23platforms, and in some instances improperly collected data from
542. 37:27children under 13 and the litigation dates back to 2023. And so now there has been a settlement
543. 37:36and some terms that now a meta is going to change some of its practices. So your thoughts on this.
544. 37:45Well, let's remember the history rates of what happened in 2021 a Facebook product manager in
545. 37:50Francis Hagen brought some internal materials out as a whistleblower saying that meta was
546. 37:58aware of the harmful impact that some of its features were having on children and so there
547. 38:03were congressional hearings.
548. 38:04You had Marsha Blackburn from Tennessee and some others who were concerned about this.
549. 38:10Then in 2023, a coalition state attorney sued meta alleging that Facebook and Instagram
550. 38:18were deliberately designed to maximize youth engagement,
551. 38:22and that meta made misleading representations
552. 38:25concerning safety of kids using the product.
553. 38:29And we had Rob Bonta from California,
554. 38:30we had J.B. McCuskey from West Virginia.
555. 38:33So this brought a whole bunch of interesting people
556. 38:35who would not normally come together together
557. 38:38to sue meta over this issue.
558. 38:40And basically the argument was this.
559. 38:42It's like you guys knew what you were doing,
560. 38:45you did it on purpose, you knew it was harmful,
561. 38:48and you design these features, these infinite scrolling, the thumbs up sign, all these features
562. 38:53that are addictive, you knew they were addictive, and you didn't do anything about it. And that is
563. 39:00a tort. When someone does something to harm another person in product design, that's a tort. And so
564. 39:06the attorneys general brought this lawsuit against Meta, and they settled for $18 billion. Now,
565. 39:13that may sound like a lot to some people, but I don't know, we were talking earlier today, and I
566. 39:16I was saying how, I don't sound like a lot to me.
567. 39:19You know, we're $40 trillion in debt as a country.
568. 39:24And when you throw the word 18 trillion around,
569. 39:26I'm like, 18 billion around,
570. 39:27like is that even a rounding error?
571. 39:29I don't even think that's a rounding error on the budget.
572. 39:32And James Uthmeyer, who's the attorney general of Florida,
573. 39:35agrees he was one of the AGs who opted out of this settlement,
574. 39:39basically telling meta, we'll see you in court saying that,
575. 39:43You know, one month cash flow does not make up for a decade of harm.
576. 39:47I think it's kind of the tenor of what he said.
577. 39:50And so $18 billion though is the settlement for a company, Meta, whose annual revenue is
578. 39:58$200 billion.
579. 40:00Okay.
580. 40:01So basically is about a month's cash flow and worth $1.5 trillion.
581. 40:06Now, some people say, okay, it's not about the money.
582. 40:10It's about the safety.
583. 40:12And so, Matt did agree in the settlement to make some changes to its product, as you pointed
584. 40:17out there.
585. 40:18But I think one of the interesting impacts here could be, and I think we won't know for a while
586. 40:23whether this is going to happen, but this could be significant to the entire social media
587. 40:28industry because now there's a new risk calculus that all these social media companies are going
588. 40:33to have to consider.
589. 40:35They could be sued under product liability theories.
590. 40:39there was evidence that met a new way they were doing this and it was harmful.
591. 40:43We don't know if there's any other evidence of some of the others, but they're on notice
592. 40:48that that could be something that they're going to have to deal with so they may need
593. 40:51to change the way they're doing business to avoid losses like this.
594. 40:58Yeah, and I think you're right that 18 billion, while to somebody like me, that sounds like
595. 41:03a lot of money.
596. 41:04But to somebody, are you still there, Mike?
597. 41:08We can still hear you, but we'll try to get him back.
598. 41:11I can't talk to nobody for a while.
599. 41:13No, I can hear you.
600. 41:16Are we there?
601. 41:18Are we on?
602. 41:21I'm not sure I can hear anyone from me.
603. 41:26All right.
604. 41:27Well, so Bobby, do you still have me?
605. 41:30OK.
606. 41:31All right.
607. 41:31So I'm still here, which is great.
608. 41:33We'll try to get Mike Donnelly back.
609. 41:35So sorry about that.
610. 41:37Sometimes live radio, there's always the, can you hear me now?
611. 41:40Good.
612. 41:41So I'm glad you can also hear me.
613. 41:43But as Mike was saying, and we've talked through this
614. 41:47previously, so as we're getting him back,
615. 41:49I'll just say, 18 billion sounds like a lot to somebody
616. 41:53like you or me.
617. 41:54But it's not really a lot, ultimately, to a company like
618. 41:59Meta.
619. 41:59So I don't think that it's really as much about the penalty.
620. 42:04I mean, a lot of this money ends up going to the lawyers
621. 42:06and all that anyway.
622. 42:08I think James Uthmeyer is correct that it doesn't go far enough, but likely the rationale that
623. 42:15the other AGs are thinking because they did agree to the settlement is that it does force
624. 42:22meta to change some of its practices.
625. 42:24So for example, there will be an age verification.
626. 42:29Meta has agreed to a stronger age assurance measure so that someone can't simply claim
627. 42:36to be 18 to avoid the protections and better identify children under 13.
628. 42:43Parents get substantially more control.
629. 42:45The likes and feeds alike counts on teen posts will be hidden by default.
630. 42:51So there's not, you know, kind of that level of engagement.
631. 42:54So yeah, and there's a few other things, but the question I think, and I'm told we have
632. 42:58Mike back, the question to me is whether these restrictions and these new safety measures
633. 43:06that meta agreed to actually go far enough
634. 43:09when you look at the broader scope of the harm
635. 43:12of social media, I mean, because even, you know,
636. 43:14I'm 41 and even being on social media,
637. 43:17I can tell it's addictive, I have to,
638. 43:19I have to intentionally put down my phone and say,
639. 43:23I'm not gonna be on this too much,
640. 43:24I have to disengage, I have to not take things personally
641. 43:27when people, you know, spew all kinds of rhetoric,
642. 43:29I mean, I cannot imagine what it would have been like
643. 43:32as a teenager or someone under 13 dealing with all of this.
644. 43:37So do you think that the settlement terms
645. 43:40that we're aware of actually go far enough
646. 43:43in this kind of product liability framework?
647. 43:46Well, we're gonna find out, Jenna,
648. 43:47and I don't know how long I was talking to myself,
649. 43:50but it sounded really good.
650. 43:51We heard you.
651. 43:52It sounded fantastic.
652. 43:53We heard you.
653. 43:53Oh, you heard?
654. 43:54You could hear me and then I couldn't hear you guys.
655. 43:55Okay, great.
656. 43:56It's interesting.
657. 43:57And, you know, shocker parents don't have to let
658. 44:00their kids have Facebook accounts.
659. 44:02they don't have to let them have Instagram accounts and they don't let it have to
660. 44:04let them have cell phones.
661. 44:06You know, my policy as a parent has been when you're 17, maybe I'll think about it
662. 44:10if you have a reason for it.
663. 44:12Either 18, 17, you know, if you want a cell phone, you can pay for it.
664. 44:16Although I still pay for a bunch of my kids, but they reimburse me.
665. 44:19You know, the family plans are really economical.
666. 44:22Hey, the family plans are great.
667. 44:23Yep, it is.
668. 44:24Exactly, the family plans.
669. 44:25But, you know, I look, this is a step in the right direction and I'm like you, I actually
670. 44:29have struggled a little bit with Facebook and X stuff too. I literally took Facebook off my
671. 44:34phone and for about a month I just didn't do anything with it and even now I've gone back a
672. 44:39little bit and I don't do much on Facebook. Similarly I like X because breaking news, right?
673. 44:45It's a good source of news for somebody in my line of work. But yeah, you know, for kids it can be
674. 44:52very addictive and very harmful. So I think, look, parents have to, we need to, we have to reject
675. 44:57some of the culture, right? Do they really need a cell phone? Maybe they do. I mean, I don't
676. 45:03know if my kids were in public school. I think I'd want them to have a cell phone so they could
677. 45:07call me if there was a problem or something like that. But now the schools are saying,
678. 45:11nope, put your cell phone in the pouch and you'll get it back at the end of the day. Kind
679. 45:14of like when we grew up, you know, there were no cell phones.
680. 45:18Oh, I still remember using the pay phone. Like, you know, my, my mom would drop me and, and
681. 45:25some friends off at the mall and it'd be like, all right, call us from the pay phone, you
682. 45:28know, like you land at the airport.
683. 45:30Yeah, do you use that?
684. 45:31I mean, it's, it's so wild how far we've come even in my lifetime, you know, and I, it's just,
685. 45:37it's just wild.
686. 45:39But the, but I think that that presents the bigger question here as well.
687. 45:44I mean, obviously the manufacturers have a responsibility to not create a product that they
688. 45:51know is harmful and to not intentionally create it to be harmful even if it generates them
689. 45:57more profit.
690. 45:58I mean those are some basics in the law but all of that notwithstanding there is no yet
691. 46:04government compulsion or compulsion otherwise that anybody actually has to use their product.
692. 46:10And so even though it seems like well everybody's on social media and I'm not going to be able
693. 46:16to get my source of whatever it is that you're using it for.
694. 46:20i think that this also comes down to a lot of personal responsibility separate
695. 46:24and apart from the obviously valid questions and the legal concerns on the
696. 46:29bigger question for parents is have you thought about this and if you thought
697. 46:33about
698. 46:34the damage that this is actually doing uh... have you thought about
699. 46:38uh... how we're engaging
700. 46:40in our culture we're engaging in
701. 46:43uh... in so much consumerism with the algorithms uh... how social media is so
702. 46:50online instead of actually in a community,
703. 46:54and we learned this during COVID,
704. 46:55that when we didn't have human interaction,
705. 46:58there is a huge detriment, because we're designed
706. 47:01for relationship, relationship to God or creator,
707. 47:04and then relationship to each other.
708. 47:07And we are supposed to do that in the context
709. 47:10of family first and foremost, in the context
710. 47:13of a local church, and then also in context of our community.
711. 47:17And all of this gets kind of put to the side
712. 47:20when we are often now alone together.
713. 47:24And I think this is a really fascinating term
714. 47:26because it's like you see some of these kids
715. 47:29that are sitting at a Starbucks or something,
716. 47:31and they're all on their phones,
717. 47:34but sitting around the table.
718. 47:35And it's like, okay, they're together,
719. 47:37but they're actually alone in their own little universe
720. 47:39on the phone.
721. 47:40They might as well not even be physically in person together.
722. 47:42So all of these things, I think this whole thing
723. 47:47and this whole story raises a bigger question
724. 47:49of what exactly are we doing as a society
725. 47:54and where does parental responsibility become key?
726. 47:58I think that's so well said Jenna.
727. 47:59And I think as parents, we really need to think about this
728. 48:03and have conversations with our kids about it.
729. 48:05I was talking with my son today about AI usage.
730. 48:08And of course, AI is the newest thing
731. 48:10that kids are now having to deal with in school
732. 48:12figure out when do we use it, when do we not use it? And you know, it's with social media
733. 48:1615 years ago or cell phones 15, 20 years ago, and then the social media and now it's AI and
734. 48:21there's so many things coming at us as parents. And so we really need to think about it. We can't
735. 48:25put our head in the sand. We've got to take some action. And you know, I always tell parents,
736. 48:30it's like, look, you've got to make sure that you're protecting your kids. It's not about whether
737. 48:34you trust them or not. It's about you protecting them from something that they're not mature enough
738. 48:41to really make a decision on and they think they are. They think they are and they're not.
739. 48:48And this is the case of unconscious incompetence. And that's a challenge when you're dealing with
740. 48:54your child because they're like, Dad, everybody has it. And you know, what am I, I'm going to look
741. 48:58dumb if I don't have a phone and if I don't have a Facebook account, how am I going to talk to my
742. 49:03friends and look, it's real. Believe me, I get it. I see it. It's something that we
743. 49:10we as parents have to deal with.
744. 49:12And in my view, I do think the pendulum may be swinging
745. 49:15back the other way.
746. 49:17Schools are now saying no.
747. 49:19That gives parents an in to say,
748. 49:21hey, other people are saying no, I'm gonna say no.
749. 49:26And I'm gonna protect you from something that is harmful.
750. 49:31What's Philippians 4-8 say?
751. 49:32Whatever is good, true, beautiful, lovely, right?
752. 49:35These things, think on them.
753. 49:37And so I try to use Philippians 4-8 as a standard.
754. 49:40It's like, look, if it doesn't meet that standard,
755. 49:43could we be doing it?
756. 49:45Should we be exposing ourselves?
757. 49:47And should we be allowing our children to be exposed to it?
758. 49:51So great conversation.
759. 49:53And I just love what you said about the family first church
760. 49:56and then community.
761. 49:58It's really important.
762. 49:59And technology can get in the way of that.
763. 50:01It is getting in the way of that.
764. 50:02We need to fight against it.
765. 50:03It is.
766. 50:04And I love what you said as well about the rise of AI.
767. 50:07And you know, Mike, that I'm a big fan
768. 50:10of chat GPT in some limited purpose.
769. 50:13Right? I mean, technology is great.
770. 50:15I love that we can have this conversation on radio that,
771. 50:18you know, 250 years ago, we couldn't have.
772. 50:20I mean, technology can be used for good,
773. 50:22but we have to make sure that we're using it
774. 50:25in the context of its proper purpose.
775. 50:27And we're not using it for things like, you know,
776. 50:30where there are so many, there's so much data now
777. 50:33about how AI is being used as a replacement for therapy.
778. 50:38It's being used as a replacement for analysis and thinking.
779. 50:44I mean, all of these questions in higher education,
780. 50:46I mean, there's just so much that is so difficult
781. 50:49that we need to rightfully discern
782. 50:52about the use of technology that includes social media,
783. 50:55that includes artificial intelligence.
784. 50:57And so we need to always walk circumspectly.
785. 51:00We also need to apply biblical principles first and foremost,
786. 51:04and then constitutional principles as well.
787. 51:06And so it's important to have these conversations.
788. 51:08Mike Donnelly, I so appreciate you taking your time this morning and this evening to join
789. 51:14me.
790. 51:14You can follow him on X that Donnelly speaks and you can always reach me as well.
791. 51:20Jenna at AFR.net.
792. 51:21I'm Jenna Ellis filling in for Abraham Hamilton the third.
793. 51:25And I will see you tomorrow morning on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
794. 51:29Have a wonderful evening.
795. 51:40The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American
796. 51:44Family Association or American Family Radio.