Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Attorney Richard Harris, Executive Director of Truth & Liberty and Greg Koukl, President of Stand to Reason

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:02It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:10It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivering people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be His ambassador.
8. 0:23Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28and now, the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:33What is meant by the term, the Kingdom of God?
12. 0:36Hi, Alex McFarland here.
13. 0:38Very honored to be sitting in tonight on the Hamilton Corner.
14. 0:42And if you recognize my voice or my name, it's probably from a show called Exploring the
15. 0:47Word that we do on the American Family Radio Network.
16. 0:50But I have the privilege when attorney, pastor, broadcaster Abe Hamilton is traveling.
17. 0:57Very often I get to fill in at days one of those days and we've got a very special show.
18. 1:01Later on in the program we're going to visit with apologist Greg Cockel of Stand to Reason.
19. 1:07We're going to talk about biblical worldview and apologetics.
20. 1:11But right now we're going to visit with just a valued colleague and friend of almost a decade,
21. 1:17attorney, pastor, Richard Harris.
22. 1:19He's the leader of Truth and Liberty.
23. 1:22And he and I got to know each other in the School of Practical Government at Karis Bible
24. 1:26College, very exciting school in Woodland Park, Colorado.
25. 1:31And we always talk about a lot of things, but Richard, it's good to have you on.
26. 1:36And I know whenever I have you on because of your legal background periodically, I'll pick
27. 1:42your brain on politics, the Constitution.
28. 1:46But tonight, let's talk about something different.
29. 1:49mentioned the Kingdom of God and I just think that is such a great topic because
30. 1:55you know it's if I recall over 350 times in Old and New Testaments the Bible
31. 2:02tells us about the Kingdom of God. Romans 14 says it is a Kingdom of
32. 2:08righteousness. In Matthew 11 verse 12 it says that Satan has put Kingdom put
33. 2:17violence against God's kingdom. So Richard Harris, it's good to have you with us, and I
34. 2:22appreciate all that you stand for, brother. And thank you for the conversation tonight.
35. 2:26Well, thank you, Alex. It's always great to be with you too, and I appreciate the opportunity
36. 2:33to join you on the show today. Yeah. So there are a myriad of topics on which you and I could speak,
37. 2:41and I would always love to learn from you and hear from you, Richard. But for a moment,
38. 2:47Let's talk about the kingdom of God. When the Bible speaks of God's kingdom, what is that talking
39. 2:54about? Well, a great question and it's incredibly deep subject, isn't it? And by the way, I always
40. 3:03learn from you too, Alex. And I probably more than you learned from me, but any kingdom implies
41. 3:11a king, doesn't it? There's a king. And what is a kingdom? It's where the king rules.
42. 3:16So the kingdom of God to me means God's jurisdiction or where God is ruling.
43. 3:21And so what is this thing, the kingdom of God?
44. 3:25Well, obviously he rules in heaven. We kind of know that, right?
45. 3:29Jesus told us to pray that kingdom would come by will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
46. 3:35So that implies God wants to rule not just in heaven, but on earth.
47. 3:39But I believe that the rule that God is seeking is a, he wants it to be voluntary on our part,
48. 3:48not a coerced rule as in a regular political kingdom.
49. 3:53And that's the age we're in right now with respect to the Lord is he's calling everyone
50. 3:57across the globe to submit to his rule his kingdom voluntarily.
51. 4:03And that's why Jesus says, simply the disciples, he told them to go and preach the kingdom
52. 4:08of God proclaim that Kingdom. It's here, it's now, and there's an invitation for everyone
53. 4:14to come into this Kingdom through voluntary submission and receive the benefits of the
54. 4:20Kingdom in our life. That's the good news. Receive those benefits. So Jesus said, you know,
55. 4:26the Kingdom of God is within you. It's within you first. But the Bible is also pretty clear
56. 4:31that the day is coming when the King of Kings is going to set foot on this earth and establish
57. 4:37his eternal kingdom here. Well, it's already in existence, already inside of us, but it's
58. 4:42talking about that that reign of Christ will actually now transition from being purely voluntary
59. 4:49to also being, he will bring the world under subjection, whether by voluntary or otherwise,
60. 4:55the every knee bow and every tongue will confess him as Lord. So that's just scratching the
61. 5:02surface, I think, of what is this kingdom of God? But yeah.
62. 5:06Well, you know, the Bible begins with the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve in a perfect environment.
63. 5:13Sadly, in Genesis 3, they sin. And so there was the perfect environment of the Garden of Eden.
64. 5:22There is the perfect kingdom of righteousness that's coming when Christ returns. So Richard,
65. 5:28Is it fair to say that history as we know it from the fall to Pentecost, the church age,
66. 5:35the present moment, history as we know it is really kind of an unnatural interruption of
67. 5:44God's otherwise righteous time on planet Earth?
68. 5:50History is just not the way it's always going to be.
69. 5:53No, and praise God for that, right?
70. 5:57Amen.
71. 5:58that he didn't leave us to our own devices, didn't leave us in sin.
72. 6:04Andruwamak revealed through his teaching, I realized the reason God put an angel in front of the tree of life to guard it
73. 6:11was so that man could not live forever in his simple state.
74. 6:15Exactly.
75. 6:16We had taken a blood eternal life there, then we'd be stuck in sin.
76. 6:20But yeah, this is not what God intends for all eternity.
77. 6:26There will be a time when Jesus comes.
78. 6:29And I think Peter referred to it as the time of the restoration
79. 6:33of all things where paradise will be restored to this planet.
80. 6:37And that's one of the things to me, brother,
81. 6:39that's so important that the church needs to hear today
82. 6:44is that the kingdom of God, God's ultimate manifestation,
83. 6:48it's not just heaven.
84. 6:50When we go to heaven, that's not our end destination.
85. 6:54Our end destination is here on this globe,
86. 6:57on planet earth, when Christ returns,
87. 6:59and those who died in Christ come with Him,
88. 7:02those who are alive and remain will be transformed,
89. 7:05but He will establish His Kingdom here.
90. 7:08And it's God's purpose and plan
91. 7:10that the earth would be filled with His glory
92. 7:12as the waters cover the seed.
93. 7:14And so when we think about the Kingdom
94. 7:18God's purposes for earth, we need to be thinking about here and now, not just getting to heaven.
95. 7:26When Christians think about that, you know, if you're a born-again believer,
96. 7:31you're part of the kingdom and you have King Jesus, the friend who's dicoth closer than a brother.
97. 7:39You've got Jesus in your life. This life, which can sometimes be hard, this life is not always easy.
98. 7:48even for a devout Christian.
99. 7:51So here's the thing, knowledge of the kingdom here and now,
100. 7:56the kingdom to come.
101. 7:59What can that do for our emotions, Richard,
102. 8:03when we reflect on the kingdom and that I'm one of his subjects,
103. 8:10what might that do for our outlook and our attitude?
104. 8:14Well, you know, it brings peace, I think, to realize that God is in charge, and I'm not
105. 8:24in charge.
106. 8:26If I don't have to be in charge, then I can relax.
107. 8:29You know, Alex?
108. 8:30I can rest that the Almighty God of the universe, the Creator of all things, holds my destiny
109. 8:36in his hands, and that he's secured that through the blood of Jesus Christ.
110. 8:40I will live forever in paradise with him,
111. 8:43no matter what adversity I face in this lie,
112. 8:46I have that assurance, that anchor behind the veil,
113. 8:48you know, that Hebrews talks about.
114. 8:51And so to me, that's just me.
115. 8:53It gives me peace to think about God as King.
116. 8:56I think when mankind, you know,
117. 8:58that's what happened in the garden, right?
118. 9:00We put ourselves on the throne.
119. 9:02We said, God, you're not the one to say anymore.
120. 9:06We're the ones to say.
121. 9:07So I'm in charge down here.
122. 9:08And yeah, you can have your role here, Lord, long as I'm consenting to it.
123. 9:12But otherwise I'm in charge.
124. 9:13Then mindset brings fear and anxiety, doesn't it?
125. 9:16Because we instinctively realize our inadequacy.
126. 9:19We realize our limitations.
127. 9:21And we strive throughout our entire life, trying to have that level of control that we have
128. 9:27been deceived into thinking we have.
129. 9:29And it just creates this disconnect.
130. 9:32And but when we come into submission to the true King, and we know that he holds our eternal
131. 9:38destiny in his hands, I think that brings peace.
132. 9:41Amen.
133. 9:42You know, Richard, I was at a pastor's luncheon today and the subject came up about spiritual
134. 9:48warfare.
135. 9:49And let me just say, folks, Satan is real.
136. 9:53We are victorious in Jesus.
137. 9:56And like you alluded to earlier in Philippians 2, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess
138. 10:02to the glory of God the Father.
139. 10:05But I think one of the ways that Satan tries to defeat Christians is through, among other
140. 10:12things, discouragement, temptation.
141. 10:15And even a Christian begins to believe what is false rather than what is true.
142. 10:24What are the lies of Satan rather than the promises of God's Word?
143. 10:30We can really lapse into a dark place.
144. 10:34And that's how the devil wants it.
145. 10:36I think Satan delights when Christians are defeated and believing things that aren't
146. 10:44true.
147. 10:45If you would, and regrettably time fleets away, but talking about the Kingdom of God, I just
148. 10:51think that is one of the greatest topics.
149. 10:54My friend Gary Habermas, who is a great apologist, he says that the teaching of the Kingdom of
150. 11:01God is just one of the absolute unique things about the New Testament that, you know, it's
151. 11:08not just do's and don'ts or anything like that, but it is the coming Kingdom of Christ
152. 11:14and that the born-again believer is a part of that.
153. 11:18I just think that this reality is a source of great joy and great incentive to live
154. 11:23righteously for the king and not to be susceptible to the lies of the enemy.
155. 11:31Amen, for sure. So, the every king has rules through his word, right? The king issues directives
156. 11:41and commands and laws and these kinds of things. Well, the kingdom of God is the same way.
157. 11:47The Lord rules through his word and it's right now, you know, the scripture says he upholds all
158. 11:54things by the word of his power. And he's calling us into this voluntary submission to renew our
159. 12:00minds to the word, to renew our minds to the truth of his word. And that includes his amazing,
160. 12:05as it says in Peter, his great and precious promises whereby we are made partakers of the
161. 12:10divine nature. And so renewing our minds to God's promises living by faith and not by sight, that
162. 12:18is the nature of the kingdom of God. We live by faith in that kingdom based on what God has said
163. 12:26and that alone because his word has the highest authority and it rules all things. So, amen,
164. 12:32the word of God is inseparable from the kingdom of God. No King rules without his word. And so,
165. 12:40it's really a fascinating study when you either break it down that way.
166. 12:44Are you teaching on this on Truth and Liberty on your broadcast these days?
167. 12:50Not right now, but I might in the future. I do have a teaching on it in my own
168. 12:56personal ministry. It's a series called Kingdom Life. I believe it's 12 or maybe
169. 13:0418 lessons on it as we look at the heart of the King and the word of the
170. 13:09King and then the heart of the King's true servants. Break it down into those
171. 13:12strings things in which a study really of the parables of Jesus, Alex, because Jesus often
172. 13:18began his parables by saying the kingdom of heaven is like, is like, yes, it's like a
173. 13:23parro, it's like a sower who went forth to so, or, you know, the many other illustrations
174. 13:28that he gave, but he was always trying to explain the kingdom. And so, you know, the king's heart
175. 13:35is a powerful place to start to realize that we have a good, a generous, a gracious king,
176. 13:41but we also have a just King and a lawful King,
177. 13:45you know, and understanding the nature of God
178. 13:48is the first place we've got to understand that
179. 13:50before we can really understand what his kingdom is like.
180. 13:53What's next on Truth and Liberty these days, brother?
181. 13:57Yeah, coming up on Truth and Liberty,
182. 13:59we have some great programs coming up.
183. 14:02Did a show with you yesterday,
184. 14:04that'll end here in a couple of weeks, I think,
185. 14:06and that was really good.
186. 14:09David Barton is on that same program.
187. 14:10I only got to be with you for a few minutes and the rest of us with David, but just talking about current events and I keep
188. 14:16I keep thinking I like everything everywhere. I look I'm seeing revival brother. I'm seeing great things
189. 14:22Exactly and God is breaking forth and just walking into my office
190. 14:27I don't know how much time we have today, but brother
191. 14:29I'm gonna step on a break. I've got to get you back forgive me. Well, we've got a heartbreak coming Richard
192. 14:36Give us your website if you would.
193. 14:38It is truthandliberty.net and Richard Harris Ministries.com.
194. 14:43Truth and Labor.
195. 14:44Hey, we'll get you back when we can talk further.
196. 14:46Folks, stay tuned.
197. 14:46We've got Apologist, author Greg Cockel after this.
198. 14:50Alex McFarland.
199. 14:52Glad you're listening to the American Family Radio Network.
200. 14:55Stay tuned.
201. 14:55We're back after this.
202. 15:01What is DEI and why is it antithetical to truth?
203. 15:05DEI teaches people to view themselves and others
204. 15:08primarily through the lens of race, gender, or social status.
205. 15:12As Christians, our call is not diversity for diversity's sake,
206. 15:16but to proclaim Christ, calling people into unity
207. 15:19through the power of the gospel.
208. 15:21I'm Jenna Ellis, and you can read my article,
209. 15:23Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion,
210. 15:25a truthful definition on thestand.net.
211. 15:34Shiting light into the darkness,
212. 15:37this is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
213. 15:42Oh, it's very special what you're about to hear.
214. 15:45We've got a great show tonight,
215. 15:46Alex McFarland here,
216. 15:48and just so honored to be on the American Family Radio Network.
217. 15:51And, you know, we have the program exploring the word,
218. 15:55and that's a Bible teaching show,
219. 15:57and by God's grace,
220. 15:59we have the privilege to be on the road,
221. 16:02like every weekend, somewhere.
222. 16:04But as many of you may know,
223. 16:06a lot of what I've done over the last 30 years
224. 16:09is apologetics.
225. 16:11and specifically apologetics among young people.
226. 16:14Well, tonight I'm just so excited to visit
227. 16:17with really a leader in every sense of the word,
228. 16:22Greg Kockel of Stantereason.
229. 16:24His website is str.org as in Stantereason.
230. 16:29But he is one of the people,
231. 16:32I mean he was doing apologetics
232. 16:34before most people had heard the word.
233. 16:37And so there's a lot going on
234. 16:39and I cannot wait to pick his brain and just get up to speed.
235. 16:43And all that God is doing through apologetics in his ministry,
236. 16:47because really, if there's anybody that is on the cutting edge
237. 16:51of innovation and using apologetics to evangelize,
238. 16:56disciple and equip upcoming generations,
239. 16:59it's Greg Cokel and he's with us now.
240. 17:02Brother, thank you so much for being with us
241. 17:03on the program tonight, but even more importantly,
242. 17:06thank you for what you do for the Kingdom of God
243. 17:08the Great Commission. Well, Alex, it's a real treat to be with you again. It's been a while since
244. 17:12we've connected, so I'm glad to be on the show and talk about what God's doing because it is pretty
245. 17:17cool. What he's up to? Well, amen. I want to ask, how long have you been kind of in the apologetics
246. 17:26ministry and give us a little bit of your background and how God brought you to where you are in the
247. 17:31journey? Sure. Yeah, well, the simple answer to that question is a half a century.
248. 17:36That's a long time. So I became a Christian 52 years ago, 1973. I was 23 years old. I
249. 17:44was a student at UCLA and I was, had been a real skeptic before that. Curiously in my
250. 17:51life, it wasn't apologetics that brought me to Christ. It was just, I have no other way
251. 17:57to explain it, Alex, than it was just the sovereign work of God in my life who opened my eyes.
252. 18:03But soon after that, I got very interested because I had questions.
253. 18:08And as I'm on the street there in Westwood Village by UCLA, engaging people because I was
254. 18:13so excited about being a Christian there at the epicenter of the Jesus movement there in Southern
255. 18:19California in the 70s.
256. 18:21And some of your listeners may have seen the movie, the Jesus revolution.
257. 18:25Well that was my beginnings, man.
258. 18:28And so I'm talking to people and I don't have answers for their challenges.
259. 18:32And I didn't have answers for my challenges, even though I knew Christianity was true, I
260. 18:36had this deep conviction.
261. 18:37So I was connected with a Christian community there in Westwood Village for two and a half
262. 18:42years.
263. 18:43Very unique situation there.
264. 18:45And while I was there, I discovered Josh McDowell, I discovered Francis Schaeffer, huge impact.
265. 18:51In fact, I got to go to a Librarian, 76 and visit and meet Dr. Schaeffer and connect there
266. 18:56a little bit.
267. 18:58And there were other people, actually back then, there weren't many available.
268. 19:02There was Josh, there was Walter Martin, there was Francis Shafer, there was, let's see, John Montgomery
269. 19:09and Norm Geisler.
270. 19:11That was it.
271. 19:12There wasn't anybody else writing, basically.
272. 19:15Across the pond, you got to see us Lewis, of course.
273. 19:17But for the most part, that was the American contingent.
274. 19:20Now, you know there's been an explosion since then, which is really fabulous.
275. 19:25And I've been a beneficiary of that explosion
276. 19:29and tried to start a few smaller explosions myself.
277. 19:34So it's nice to be in the stream of what God is doing there.
278. 19:38But over the years though, I just began to focus more and more
279. 19:42on these areas, all the areas that interested me.
280. 19:46And I just followed my interests and they were varied.
281. 19:49So it turned out that I became more of a generalist
282. 19:54on these issues.
283. 19:55I ended up graduating with a Bible degree,
284. 19:57and then I got a Master's degree in apologetics.
285. 20:01And then I started immediately in 1993
286. 20:04at a Master's in Philosophy under JP Moreland over at Talbot.
287. 20:08And they're wonderful program there.
288. 20:11And I gotta tell you, the combination of the apologetics
289. 20:14MA and the MA in philosophy, I'm telling you,
290. 20:18it was amazing how that served me well
291. 20:21to equip me to address all of the variety of issues.
292. 20:25PhD I was never interested in because as you know with your doctor you got to kind of go
293. 20:29really narrow and really deep. I was interested in a broader approach. So that's what I did.
294. 20:34And in 1993, May 1st, that would be 32 years from this coming May 1st, we started standard
295. 20:47reason. And that was an organization that was just dedicated to thoughtful engagement
296. 20:53and gracious engagement.
297. 20:55And we know a lot of the smarty pants,
298. 20:58folk like you and all the rest of them, you know.
299. 21:01But we take their stuff, we learn it,
300. 21:03and then we translate it.
301. 21:05And we try to make it available to the rank and file
302. 21:07and throw the ball so they can catch it.
303. 21:09And that's kind of a cameo of what we've been doing,
304. 21:12what I've been doing and what's Dan Doreza
305. 21:14has been doing for all these years.
306. 21:16Well, you know, you're one that God has raised up
307. 21:20And they're like you say, over the last really 50 years, I mean, there have been so many quality
308. 21:26people that God has raised up. And you know, you mentioned the great Josh McDowell about a month ago,
309. 21:35I was spent the day with Josh and Dottie there in Southern California. And folks,
310. 21:41and Greg, I'm sure Greg will back me up on this. Folks, I cannot overstate how significant the
311. 21:49the ministry of Josh McDowell was, because Josh told me one time that from roughly 1970
312. 21:56to 1980 in a ten-year period, he spoke in about 1,000 university campuses in North America
313. 22:06and Europe. And of course, Josh is very famous for evidence that demands a verdict and more
314. 22:11than a carpenter. One of my favorite Josh McDowell books was a book called He Walked Among Us,
315. 22:18which was really like ancient evidence for the life of Christ.
316. 22:22But I went out to Southern California and spent the day with Josh because he was so huge in
317. 22:28my life.
318. 22:29But Greg, here's the thing, apologetics has been used by the Lord, not only in evangelism,
319. 22:38perhaps to persuade the skeptic, but in discipleship to help ground the believer.
320. 22:46I'm one of those, but apologetics just not only stays relevant, but it seems to get more
321. 22:54and more relevant here in the 21st century, doesn't it?
322. 22:57Yeah, it does. That's a great observation about discipleship and just to parallel that.
323. 23:03Some people think that apologetics is a refined discipline in Christianity for the
324. 23:10blockheads or whatever, you know, just a few people. When you read through the New Testament,
325. 23:15there are whether it's in the in the gospels or in the book of Acts. There are thoughtful defenses
326. 23:22of the truth being made on almost every page. It's ever people just overlook it, you know,
327. 23:27take John chapter five. Here is Jesus himself saying, okay, you don't believe me because I'm a
328. 23:32lone voice. Okay. What about Moses? Moses testified to me, believe him, believe the miracles that I
329. 23:39perform, believe John the Baptist, believe the scriptures which speak of me. So what is he doing?
330. 23:44He's even brought bringing in evidences to his community there, letting this is why you should
331. 23:51believe in me. So just as one example, John says at the end of his gospel, in John chapter 20, he tells
332. 23:58why he wrote the gospel. And he says, many other signs and wonders, and other miracles,
333. 24:04Jesus performed that has not been written in this book. He only included seven, but he tells
334. 24:09why. But these have been included in order that you might believe that Jesus is the Messiah,
335. 24:16the Son of God, two things and in believing have life in his name. In other words, the whole reason
336. 24:23he put the Gospel of John, the most famous characterization of the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth,
337. 24:30is so that it's like a long apologetics tract. We want you to believe, but we expect that an
338. 24:37evidence like a powerful work of a miracle is going to make a difference and this is why
339. 24:41I've recorded these things that we were witnesses to. So there you have it. It's just all over in
340. 24:48the scriptures. Now it's standard reason. It's ironic that you were talking about apologetics
341. 24:52and discipleship because standard reason is not principally an evangelistic enterprise.
342. 24:58We're a discipleship enterprise. The first words of our mission is we train Christians.
343. 25:04What do we train them to do to defend the faith?
344. 25:07Partly because we know that apologetics are going to help the toughest critic that any
345. 25:16Christian will ever face, and that's themselves.
346. 25:20That's themselves.
347. 25:21And I actually think that and it satisfies me greatly, Alex, to know that the vast majority
348. 25:28or the vast, the largest impact that we have at standard reason is in the lives of Christians,
349. 25:34to stabilize them, to strengthen them, to bring them back to the fold of Thore on the fringes,
350. 25:40and to get them committed to following Jesus and never stopping. And then, of course, the things
351. 25:45that were teaching them that help them, they can then leverage in their conversations with other
352. 25:50people. And so it does have, in a certain sense, the second generation from us, an evangelistic
353. 25:58impact, which is really, we're happy for that. But remember, the Great Commission is not evangelism.
354. 26:04The Great Commission is discipleship. Yeah, so evangelism is logically prior, obviously,
355. 26:12but we're really focusing on discipleship. And evangelism turns out to be the natural outcome
356. 26:20of good discipleship, but my heart is with the body of Christ.
357. 26:25Indeed, indeed. I've got to ask you this, have you seen the questions and objections?
358. 26:33Have they changed over the years?
359. 26:36The questions people have and the objections of unbelievers, have those objections changed
360. 26:44over the years?
361. 26:45Yeah, they have changed and they have changed or the emphasis has changed principally because of a,
362. 26:52pardon me, a change in the culture. Narcissism has been there since the fall,
363. 26:58Genesis 3, but this is the first generation in which the entire culture seems to be
364. 27:06celebrating narcissism captured in the phrase, you do you. It's all about my feelings and what I
365. 27:15I believe about myself and what I want and what I think is true for me and everybody's
366. 27:20got to support that and champion it.
367. 27:21Okay, so it's a radical relativism and all the sexual issues and the gender issues and virtually
368. 27:27everything else, the entitlement notions that we see in our culture, especially in the younger
369. 27:32people who are weaned on these notions.
370. 27:36That is just from coast to coast, all right, and in the church.
371. 27:42So what this is done then is, especially in the problem of evil, there's been a real shift.
372. 27:50And of course the problem of evil in general comes up as a challenge and a whole bunch of
373. 27:54other issues as well that perennially are challenges and you're aware of those and we talk about
374. 28:00those.
375. 28:01But now that there's been a change, and I don't know if you noticed this, in the way
376. 28:04people voice the problem of evil.
377. 28:06And the way they point voice it is, even if there is a God, if he won't let me do anything
378. 28:13I want to do, especially sexually, then he's not a good God.
379. 28:18That God is evil.
380. 28:20And so that's that's a huge.
381. 28:21And now we've got now we have to argue not for for the goodness of God himself in light
382. 28:28of the kind of restraints and restrictions, et cetera, that God places on humanity for the
383. 28:33purpose of human flourishing.
384. 28:35I want those. So that's a huge, that's one huge thing.
385. 28:39I want to make an observation. He tell me if you agree or disagree. Greg, maybe 20 years
386. 28:46ago and I'm on university campuses, it seemed like the core value of students was sexual license.
387. 28:55I'm going to say when I speak on university campuses today, it's like the core value is
388. 29:00just license. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's not merely sexual. It's like no boundaries,
389. 29:08no guardrails. I will do whatever I will do. And no one, not even the Lord has the right
390. 29:16to tell me differently. Even if he's real, even if he exists, he doesn't have a right
391. 29:20to interfere. No, that's true. And so that's a huge one. Another huge one is the biblical
392. 29:26issues. So people have been focusing in on the, I'm just going to say it this way, so-called
393. 29:33slavery in the Old Testament, because most of the times the word slave or slavery is used,
394. 29:38it's actually indentured servanthood. And this is an unfortunate, more recent since the beginning
395. 29:45of the 20th century translation problem. If you go back to the King James Bible, the translation
396. 29:52there, it's you don't have all the slavery stuff. It's more servant, which is more accurate
397. 29:57to the circumstances. But anyway, people read that and they go nutty. They see the word slave
398. 30:01and they think of American slavery with it. It's accesses. And so they think that's what's
399. 30:05being promoted. The so-called genocide that they see authorized in scripture. These are
400. 30:15two big things that have come more front and center in the last, I'd say 10 years, maybe
401. 30:2115, than they were prior to that. Now, our friend Paul Copan has written a wonderful book
402. 30:27as God, Moral Monster, and there's lots of things. I have a book that I called Street
403. 30:31Smarts, in which I address that issue in a more summery fashion than Paul does. He devotes his
404. 30:38whole book to those kinds of issues. But, and there are good answers regarding those, but it takes
405. 30:43Like certain things, the good answers require somebody to sit and think through it with you.
406. 30:50It's not just a snap.
407. 30:52Here's a one-liner that covers it.
408. 30:54Oh, I got it.
409. 30:55And that's what a lot of people are not willing to do.
410. 30:59Now, at the same time, there is a movement of the Holy Spirit that I've watched for the
411. 31:07last 50 years, and it's a grassroots movement.
412. 31:11It's not top down in the culture.
413. 31:13It is bottom up.
414. 31:15And stand a reason is part of that,
415. 31:17but we're just a small part of that
416. 31:20over the last now 32 years.
417. 31:22Excuse me, but there is also
418. 31:24a lots of other organizations that popped up
419. 31:26and a gazillion up organizations or enterprises or works.
420. 31:31I call them the third column enterprises,
421. 31:33the boots and the ground,
422. 31:35things that people are doing in the local church
423. 31:38and their names are not gonna be on books anywhere
424. 31:40of our key as a big speaker or whatever. But it's amazing what God is doing. And you
425. 31:47and I, you know, we never hear about most of these things, but we stumble upon them once
426. 31:51in a while and say, man, that is so cool what you guys are doing so productively. And it's
427. 31:58all over the country that is happening.
428. 32:01Hey, we got to take a break. Hold tight. Greg, can you hang on for one more segment?
429. 32:06Absolutely folks. This is the American family radio network Alex McFarlane here. We're talking with apologist author
430. 32:14Venerated leader and rightly so Greg coco stay tuned. We're gonna talk more about apologetics defending the faith and how you can
431. 32:22Represent the gospel to a watching world stay tuned. We're back after this
432. 32:31Gossip it isn't easy to kick who doesn't want the insider info who wouldn't want to be the bearer of this week's most exclusive whisper
433. 32:38How then do we bless the name of the Lord when we were just cursing His child?
434. 32:44How do we bear His name while we so flippantly defame His very likeness?
435. 32:48So put on the full armor of God and let one of us who is without sin throw the first stone.
436. 32:54I'm Lauren Bragg and you can read Gossip and the Gospel on thestand.net.
437. 32:59The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrets are available at aFR.net
438. 33:10back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
439. 33:16Welcome back to the program, Alex McFarland's here.
440. 33:18We're talking with Greg Cocoa.
441. 33:19We'll resume our conversation with Greg in just a moment.
442. 33:23I want to give God the glory.
443. 33:25In my own world, we have a lot going on and I value your prayers.
444. 33:29And we got a speaker series coming up in the summer of 25.
445. 33:33It's called Conversations That Matter.
446. 33:36and at my website, AlexMcFarland.com slash conversations. We've got apologetics, worldview,
447. 33:44speakers all of the country. And May 4th, we're going to be in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
448. 33:50Myrtle Beach is kind of like Branson, Missouri folks. They've got a lot of theaters. We've rented
449. 33:55a theater and our first worldview speaker of the summer is going to be Dinesh DeSousa.
450. 34:01About 15 years ago, I moderated quite a number of debates.
451. 34:05Dinesh was debating Christopher Hitchens and Michael Schurmer and tried to get him to debate
452. 34:12Richard Dawkins and we met every condition that the atheist Richard Dawkins had.
453. 34:18He would say, well, if this, and we always said, okay, sure, we got it.
454. 34:22We got it.
455. 34:23Time place.
456. 34:24But Dawkins would never debate Dinesh.
457. 34:27But you can hear Dinesh D'Souza in person May 4th in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
458. 34:34If you would, check out alexmakfarlane.com slash conversations.
459. 34:39But right now we're talking with Greg Cokel and he has got a lot going on.
460. 34:43I would refer you to his own website, S-T-R.org as in stand to reason.
461. 34:50Also reality apologetics.
462. 34:53And Greg, is that a .com or a .org reality?
463. 34:56realityapologetics.com.
464. 34:57Realityapologetics.com, yeah.
465. 34:59Now, this is super exciting.
466. 35:01Tell people about the reality conferences.
467. 35:04Well, we have a conviction that's stand to reason and the conviction is that the most
468. 35:09important generation is always the next one.
469. 35:14The most important generation is always the next generation.
470. 35:19We have to pass the baton.
471. 35:21And so about 17 years ago now, we put a program in place to do that.
472. 35:27And we started these conferences in which we were targeting middle schoolers and high
473. 35:31schoolers, okay?
474. 35:33Not college kids or whatever.
475. 35:35Middle schoolers and high schoolers, because that's when they go south.
476. 35:38Not when they get in college.
477. 35:39They're already gone by then, in most cases.
478. 35:42So we're starting there.
479. 35:44And we started out with one event in Southern California.
480. 35:47we added Dallas and then we added Seattle, then we added Minneapolis, then we added,
481. 35:53you know, somewhere in the South and then when added Philly, because at the time, Philly was
482. 35:57the farthest North we can get and still find Christians.
483. 36:01Yeah.
484. 36:02So, but we're trying to box the compass here.
485. 36:05Now for the last, I'd say about the last eight or so years, we've had six events running,
486. 36:11okay?
487. 36:12And sometimes they move around a little bit.
488. 36:14We've almost finished our series for this year, three in the fall and three in the spring.
489. 36:18The next one, the last one for this year is in Dayton, Ohio, April 25 and 26.
490. 36:25So it's a Friday night and an all day Saturday.
491. 36:29Now I'm just telling you, this thing is built up so much momentum that every venue that we
492. 36:34are in, we fill up.
493. 36:36So we were, we were in Dallas a month or so ago, 3000 people filled the venue, young people.
494. 36:43We also had 3,000 watching online.
495. 36:46That's 6,000 in one event.
496. 36:48Then we had last weekend, we were in Philly,
497. 36:51a smaller venue, we had about what, 1600 or something like that,
498. 36:55sold that one out.
499. 36:57Ohio's a new venue, so we've got room there too.
500. 37:00People can go to realityapologetics.com
501. 37:03if they're within striking distance of that,
502. 37:06but that's April 25th and 26th.
503. 37:09But on in October, no, make it November of last year,
504. 37:13Well, we've been meeting at the biggest church in the state of Minnesota,
505. 37:17Grace Church, Eden Prairie in Minneapolis,
506. 37:19and we've filled that thing to 4,000 students.
507. 37:22I mean, it's just unbelievable.
508. 37:25And when we open the doors, these kids charge for the front.
509. 37:30They all want front seats, you know, and whole youth groups are coming.
510. 37:33And some are getting on the road and driving for six or seven or eight hours,
511. 37:37you know, Dallas or Boston kind of thing.
512. 37:40And it's been great to see what God has been doing, Alex,
513. 37:43through this.
514. 37:44In fact, it's been such a success for us.
515. 37:46Some people mistakenly think,
516. 37:48well, you guys are a youth organization.
517. 37:49No, we're not.
518. 37:50We're doing all kinds of stuff for adults.
519. 37:53We have training programs right on our website at STR.org.
520. 37:56We've got articles and videos.
521. 37:58And we have outposts.
522. 38:00We've got some 150 some outposts.
523. 38:02These are like, I don't know,
524. 38:03for the lack of a better word,
525. 38:05kind of standard reason clubs in local churches
526. 38:07where apologetic minded people
527. 38:09can get together under our leadership. And we actually in nine different countries now,
528. 38:13so that's flowing. But this situation with the young people has been fabulous to see
529. 38:18and we're excited about reality. Amen. And folks, let me say this in the strongest possible terms,
530. 38:26young people, when they hear the gospel, they hear about Jesus and then the compelling lines of
531. 38:33evidence that Jesus did rise from the grave. The Bible is the true trustworthy word of God.
532. 38:41The God of the Bible exists and we can explain and even defend who God is.
533. 38:48Young people respond like a thirsty person getting a cool glass of water on a hot summer day.
534. 38:56I can't, to every parent listening, every pastor, maybe every volunteer or you're a leader in your
535. 39:03church, please believe me. And Greg, we haven't even talked about this. Our organization, we
536. 39:09do seven youth camps every summer that are very oriented toward biblical worldview and
537. 39:14apologetics. And the website of our seven camps is equipretreat.org. But we have 1,200
538. 39:21teens, seven camps all over America. And there's a waiting list. And most of the kids come three
539. 39:29reinforce summers and they love it. And so please believe that young people care about
540. 39:36the truth of God's word. Now that being said Greg, what advice would you give because you
541. 39:42know, we've got people listening that are in urban areas, rural areas, all over the USA.
542. 39:47How may people begin to do like apologetics in their local church, like either Sunday school
543. 39:54school or small group or youth group.
544. 39:57How do we get apologetics type content into the local church?
545. 40:02Well, that's actually sometimes a little bit of a tough nut to crack.
546. 40:07The reason is the people that come to our events are people that are really motivated
547. 40:11about that stuff.
548. 40:13When you're going into a more neutral environment, people may not be aware of it.
549. 40:17Sometimes they think, well, this is for the slide rule of people in the pocket.
550. 40:23Of course, nobody uses a slide rule anymore.
551. 40:25I guess, calculator people, whatever.
552. 40:27This is for the knuckleheads and not for us.
553. 40:30We just go by faith in this the way they characterize it.
554. 40:33And what they mean is really more of a blind faith, which is you know this, Alex, is not
555. 40:39taught in the Bible.
556. 40:41This is not what the Bible teaches.
557. 40:45It's thick with evidences for a for not a leap of faith, but a step of trust based on the
558. 40:51reason.
559. 40:52So sometimes there's that negative vibe right there.
560. 40:56And I think that maybe one of the best ways to do this
561. 40:59is to have somebody who has some capability,
562. 41:02some skill in a local church.
563. 41:04If you're in a local church and you wanna see something happen,
564. 41:08then put together a presentation of some sort.
565. 41:11And there's lots and lots of materials
566. 41:13that are available for that.
567. 41:14And try to get into your youth group
568. 41:16and make a presentation.
569. 41:18And it's kind of like, here's the way I wrote it.
570. 41:22about it in the tactics book that I've written. And at the end I talk about, you know, sometimes
571. 41:28it's hard to start a fire with wet wood, which is the way a lot of churches are. So what you have
572. 41:33to do is you have to find the dry tinder. And in every church, there are going to be people that
573. 41:40want more of this kind of thing. They're the dry tinder, make common cause with them, find out who
574. 41:47might be interested and then gather together. And then as a group together, you might be able to
575. 41:52put something together to make a presentation maybe to the youth group or one of the Bible
576. 41:58studies or something depending on the structure of the church or the Sunday school or whatever and
577. 42:03work with something basic, you know, about the arguments for the existence of God or for the
578. 42:09resurrection. We got Easter coming up soon. And there's lots of things to do with lots of areas,
579. 42:15but once you get the tin dry tinder burning right, a small thing, it begins in many cases to dry out
580. 42:21the wet wood and then you can get something going. But it's going to take some concerted effort in
581. 42:27most churches that have no momentum in the area of apologetics.
582. 42:31Yeah, and you can go through different books. My goodness, J Warner Wallace,
583. 42:38Cold Case Christianity, and of course Lee Strobel has written so many great books.
584. 42:43And you mentioned tactics. That's just one of the great books of our lifetime. How long ago did you
585. 42:50you write that, Greg?
586. 42:522009 was when I came out with the first edition,
587. 42:54then 10 years later I did,
588. 42:57increase the word count by 35% in a second edition.
589. 43:00And I'm done with that one.
590. 43:02I'm not working on that anymore,
591. 43:03but that's been doing really well.
592. 43:04It's usually between, I don't know,
593. 43:06between 2000 and 4000 Amazon for the,
594. 43:09you know, um, teen years.
595. 43:10And so I'm really thrilled that that's working
596. 43:12as an evergreen book because so many have expressed,
597. 43:15like you just did, the benefit that it's been for them.
598. 43:19So that's called tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions.
599. 43:24And so now it's what 15 years in the running.
600. 43:28And seriously, that's one of the books.
601. 43:31Whenever I'm in front of audiences, like last week I was at a homeschool
602. 43:34convention in Wisconsin and there's about 4,500 people there, mostly young people.
603. 43:39And people say, okay, you know, give me a homework assignment.
604. 43:42And it's been my joy to tell many audiences, you know, when you're going to
605. 43:47build a library. And folks do. I encourage you to build a good Christian library, book books.
606. 43:55I know we read on screens so many times, but don't forget to build a good collection of
607. 44:03actual printed books. I always mention tactics. It's a great book. Now you kind of did a follow-up
608. 44:09to it. Am I right on that? Yes. Last year, no, it's actually a year ago, September, a book
609. 44:16called Street Smarts came out, and the subtitle there is Using Questions, because this is what
610. 44:21I teach people to do.
611. 44:23It's the reason we teach others.
612. 44:25Use questions to navigate conversations, very powerful.
613. 44:28But the subtitle is Using Questions to Answer Christianity's Toughest Challenges.
614. 44:32So it's a sequel to the tactics book.
615. 44:36And by the way, I mentioned about people doing things in the local church, the question you
616. 44:40asked, we have a thing called Outposts.
617. 44:43And if you go to str.org and then check out the outpost situation, you can start a group
618. 44:49right there in your church that will help you, will guide you and give you tutoring and how
619. 44:55to do this.
620. 44:56And it's been very successful, they're rapidly multiplying, and it's a way of kind of pulling
621. 45:02the Dry Tender together in your local community to get that fire burning.
622. 45:08Peter 1 16. When I was a college student, Greg, and at 21, found a relationship with Jesus Christ
623. 45:16and literally the week that I got saved, I discovered books by Josh McDowell. And then I'm
624. 45:24kind of weird. I read the footnotes. And in all the footnotes, I discovered names like
625. 45:30Francis Schaeffer and G. K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, Norm Geisler, E. J. Carnel, some names
626. 45:37like that. But I discovered some verses, one of which was 2 Peter 1, 16, very early in my
627. 45:45Christian life. Peter writes this, we have not followed cleverly devised fables when we
628. 45:52made none under the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. What does that mean
629. 45:57in terms of the reality of the gospel.
630. 46:00Now folks, get this.
631. 46:01Here's a man who claimed to be the Son of God.
632. 46:04He claimed that he had the power of eternal life.
633. 46:09And Jesus rose from the dead.
634. 46:11And regarding this gospel, this good news,
635. 46:14the Apostle Peter says,
636. 46:16we have not followed cleverly devised fables
637. 46:20when we made no 90.
638. 46:21Great comment on the power of this verse,
639. 46:242 Peter 1, 16.
640. 46:26Well, you see those sentiments in a number of places in 1 John, the opening of 1 John,
641. 46:32the things that we have seen, that our eyes have beheld, that our hands handled regarding
642. 46:37this word of life.
643. 46:38And he goes on and on with all these tactile kind of characterizations.
644. 46:42These men are saying they were there.
645. 46:45They saw.
646. 46:47They beheld.
647. 46:48They touched the word of life.
648. 46:50They lived with Jesus.
649. 46:53We're not making this up is what they're saying.
650. 46:56Now a person has to ask themselves whether they can believe that.
651. 46:59But I think one of the reasons that we can take it seriously is each of those guys, especially
652. 47:04when they wrote, knew that they were essentially signing their testimony with their own blood.
653. 47:11Not all the apostles died of martyr's death, but the threat of martyrdom was hanging over
654. 47:17every single one of their heads.
655. 47:20And with that in view, why would they make a story up?
656. 47:23Why would they make this all up?
657. 47:25What was I thinking?
658. 47:26No, I'm joking.
659. 47:27No, not at all.
660. 47:29They were willing to go to their grave in a brutal death for the truth of the testimony.
661. 47:37Now lots of people die for a lie, but how many people die for a lie when they know it's
662. 47:43a lie?
663. 47:44And I think that's the power of that passage from 2 Peter and the passage from 1 John and
664. 47:49others that are like it.
665. 47:51These guys are telling you what happened in their life, the man they saw alive, crucified
666. 47:58and resurrected.
667. 47:59That's the issue, the resurrected Christ, and that changes everything, doesn't it, Alex?
668. 48:04Indeed it changes everything.
669. 48:06The voice you're hearing, that's Greg Cokal of Standard Reason, Apologist, Author.
670. 48:11And folks, this Jesus is real.
671. 48:14If you need spiritual help on my own website, AlexMcFahrond.com, there's a tab.
672. 48:19What does God say about my relationship with him?
673. 48:23I encourage you to go there.
674. 48:24Folks, thanks for listening.
675. 48:25You can share this.
676. 48:26It's archived at afr.net.
677. 48:28In the meantime, stand strong for truth.
678. 48:30Stay bold.
679. 48:31And remember that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
680. 48:35Blessings to you all.
681. 48:39The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those
682. 48:44of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.