Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Dr. Gary Habermas, Research Professor of Apologetics and Philosophy.

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:07This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28and now, The Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:33Good evening, everybody.
12. 0:34Alex McFarland here sitting in for Abe Hamilton, the third attorney, pastor, journalist, and
13. 0:42the host of The Hamilton Corner.
14. 0:43I got a call a little while ago.
15. 0:46Could I sit in for Abe tonight?
16. 0:48I said, I'm happy to do so.
17. 0:51We've got a great show and we're going to have a wonderful guest in just a few moments.
18. 0:55Dr. Gary Habermas that I'll introduce formally in just a moment.
19. 0:59But today is a significant day for a lot of reasons, one of which is, I think it's very
20. 1:04prophetically significant.
21. 1:06Today is the 77th anniversary of the rebirth of the nation of Israel.
22. 1:11May 14, 1948, Israel was reconstituted as a nation.
23. 1:17And you know, 11 minutes into their existence, then President Harry Truman said the United
24. 1:23States recognizes the sovereign nation of Israel.
25. 1:26And I think that's very significant.
26. 1:28And so today we say happy birthday Israel.
27. 1:31But later on in the program we'll take some phone calls and questions.
28. 1:35I'll go ahead and give that number if you have an apologetics or worldview related
29. 1:39question.
30. 1:40We'll get there maybe about midway through the show.
31. 1:43The number is triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty, triple eight, five,
32. 1:47eight, nine, eighty eight, forty.
33. 1:50And you know, it's always a good day when you get to talk to Gary Habermas a couple of times.
34. 1:56He and I were on the phone earlier this morning about some speaking opportunities that are coming
35. 2:01up.
36. 2:02And when I got the call to sit in tonight for Abe, I thought, I don't know if he can do
37. 2:07it, but I'm going to chance it and see if we can visit a little bit with Dr. Gary Habermas.
38. 2:13He's been at Liberty University for a number of years.
39. 2:16He was my professor in graduate school and I'm proud to say not only professor but a great
40. 2:21friend and just a champion of the faith.
41. 2:25Dr. Gary Happer-Mass, thanks for being with us tonight.
42. 2:28Well, Alex, I'm here to be, I'm happy to be asked, you know, I got a call and I thought,
43. 2:37how can you say no to ministry?
44. 2:39I mean, it's just the most unique opportunity in the world.
45. 2:43So, that'd be the glory.
46. 2:45got to be the glory to got to be the glory before we I've got a lot of things I want to ask you but
47. 2:51your website and your your books how many books have you written now well this four volume one on
48. 2:58the resurrection the four big ones about a thousand pages each they make forty seven forty eight forty
49. 3:05nine and fifty and I didn't know that until just recently I took a look at at a list of books I had
50. 3:12and I needed exactly four to hit 50 and I thought,
51. 3:16wow, that's convenient because like you noted,
52. 3:19number three is out tomorrow.
53. 3:20So, number four is done.
54. 3:22It's just not out.
55. 3:24Now, four volumes on the resurrection,
56. 3:27what would be the focus of each individual volume?
57. 3:34Each one, except for the fourth one,
58. 3:38is on a single topic, very broad topic,
59. 3:42and number four is on two topics,
60. 3:45plus a large bibliography.
61. 3:48Volume one, they're all called on the resurrection,
62. 3:53but then they have a subtitle.
63. 3:56Volume one is called evidence,
64. 3:58and I try to take the evidence from facts,
65. 4:01which critical scholars, even atheistic,
66. 4:06skeptical, agnostic,
67. 4:08non-New Testament scholars,
68. 4:10they gotta be scholars in the field.
69. 4:13Use their data,
70. 4:13I think we have enough to show the resurrection happen.
71. 4:16Number two is naturalistic theories.
72. 4:20What are the what ifs that people charge the resurrection with?
73. 4:26How can they be answered?
74. 4:27That one's out too.
75. 4:29Number three, we kind of leave the apologetic category
76. 4:32and we move toward where our scholars today.
77. 4:36And number three is called scholarly perspectives.
78. 4:40And I had an editor on that when I put it all together
79. 4:43that he shaped it up, Ben Shaw. And Ben tells me that there's just short of 8,000 footnotes
80. 4:51in volume three. So that just means we cited an awful lot of people. We didn't pick fights
81. 4:56with them. We just repeated what they said. Volume four has two topics. How is the resurrection
82. 5:02of the center of theology? And how is the resurrection of the center of New Testament practice?
83. 5:08And that's pastoral type concerns. What's the resurrection do for us today?
84. 5:13You know, that's really kind of the first I would have asked you, how is the resurrection,
85. 5:19the center of theology?
86. 5:22How is it really the truth on which all the other truths rest?
87. 5:25I mean, it's a real, it's a profound, but it's a real serious and simple question.
88. 5:32The center of Christianity is what we call the gospel message.
89. 5:36Now we have four books called the Gospels, but the Gospel message is the central theme
90. 5:44where the New Testament comes together. And I always say in terms of facts, in terms of
91. 5:49data, whenever the Gospel data are defined, they are at a minimum the deity, death, and
92. 5:57resurrection of Jesus, deity, death, resurrection. And a person doesn't get saved by believing
93. 6:04by believing in facts.
94. 6:06It's like saying, it's like saying you don't get married
95. 6:11by being in love, you have to say, I do.
96. 6:15And a person becomes a Christian
97. 6:18when they decide to walk in Jesus' steps.
98. 6:22In fact, two New Testament writers say
99. 6:25that a believer will follow the steps of Jesus.
100. 6:28So salvation is what the gospel is
101. 6:32and what you do about it.
102. 6:33Now, if the key to the gospel is deity, death, resurrection, and Paul says about the resurrection,
103. 6:39there's nothing, then I think that's a short way to get there.
104. 6:44If the gospel is the key and the resurrection makes the gospel true, then the resurrection
105. 6:49has got to be the key to the whole thing.
106. 6:52And if Jesus rose and the evidence is compelling that he did, what do we know?
107. 6:59What may we conclude by that risen Jesus and the empty tomb?
108. 7:05I think let me answer it this way.
109. 7:08Of all the things in the New Testament, of all the doctrines, of all the practice, of
110. 7:13everything we're told, here's the pastoral significance of the resurrection.
111. 7:19More than any other fact, more than any other, I should say more than any other belief, we're
112. 7:27We're told that what happened to Jesus will happen to believers.
113. 7:33The resurrection is the key to eternal life.
114. 7:37And Jesus over and over again, Jesus and the New Testament writers said Paul, for example,
115. 7:44said he will change my vile body to be like unto his glorious body.
116. 7:49He says that in the book of Philippians, chapter three.
117. 7:52So the number one thing that's connected to the resurrection is our, the believers,
118. 7:58resurrections. Jesus is already living forever. That's the opportunity we have to live forever
119. 8:05in Jesus. Amen. Amen. For those just tuning in, Alex McFarland here with Dr. Gary Habermas,
120. 8:13a prolific author, well-known apologist. And I've heard it said, and I've said it myself
121. 8:20because it's true. He's the world expert on the resurrection. And in apologetic circles,
122. 8:27this man is just the go-to source for the resurrection and ancient evidence for the life
123. 8:33of Christ. I know you've got a website with a lot of content there. What is your website,
124. 8:37Dr. Habermas?
125. 8:38It's my name. So it's, and I didn't set it up. They just thought that was the simplest
126. 8:44way to go there. Gee, instead of Gary, like on the screen, ghabormass.com. Ghabormass.com
127. 8:54is a website and then I have a YouTube channel also.
128. 8:57Yeah, I don't know that I've ever asked you this. Coming up, who influenced you? Did you
129. 9:04have kind of theological heroes coming up in your formative years? I didn't know any
130. 9:11theological heroes to tell you the truth. I was pretty young when the most important person
131. 9:20of my life at that time passed away. I often say that the doubts of my life were bookended by two
132. 9:26deaths of the two most important people in my life. And when this individual, my great grandmother,
133. 9:34now someone could say, how can your great grandmother be the most important person in your life? Well,
134. 9:38Well, I was a child and my parents knew that she was the most important to me,
135. 9:45a person to be on Earth and they were happy, they were very happy with that.
136. 9:49But when she died, that confronted me with the idea of mortality.
137. 9:56Why do we die? And will I see her again? Many, many years later, because my doubt lasted for
138. 10:05for 20 straight years and off and on for a lot more,
139. 10:12about five years after the end of my doubt by God's grace,
140. 10:16the wife of my four children passed away
141. 10:20at the age of 43 with stomach cancer.
142. 10:25And all our children were home at that time
143. 10:28and within just a week of her death,
144. 10:32two of the older children came into my room
145. 10:34and said, Dad, I feel like I lost my best friend.
146. 10:39In fact, I said I did lose my best friend.
147. 10:41And I had to.
148. 10:43So there's doubt in between.
149. 10:46I didn't have time to have your question, heroes,
150. 10:51because I hadn't done any studying.
151. 10:53And someone said to me, well, Jesus was raised from the dead.
152. 10:56Christianity would be true.
153. 10:58God wouldn't raise their difference with the dead.
154. 11:00And I thought, well, that makes perfect sense.
155. 11:02The only problem is I have no idea
156. 11:04Jesus is raising the dead. And it's an extraordinary event. And I'd like to see if there's evidence
157. 11:10and that kind of launched me. I'll add one other thing. I'm asking a number of podcasts.
158. 11:16Somebody will say, hey, I'll bet you you did the resurrection because you're,
159. 11:23you wanted to help people. You wanted to help people through their doubts. You did this to give
160. 11:28them a basis. Is that right? And I said, actually, it's not. I'll be real selfish. I'm not so altruistic.
161. 11:38I launched on the study of the resurrection because I wanted to help me answer my own questions. So,
162. 11:46it was my doubt that it started out. Thankfully, I'm able to help people later. That's fine.
163. 11:52but I just had to get through these two deaths in my life. You know I have to tell
164. 11:58you because you know Angie and I knew you way way back then when your wife got
165. 12:06cancer and passed because I was in grad school and instantly I thought about
166. 12:10C.S. Lewis who also a valiant defender of the faith and his wife died and you a
167. 12:18a defender of the faith and your wife died. Did anybody ever ask you,
168. 12:25hey Gary Habermas, you're out there proclaiming the gospel, defending the gospel, why would this
169. 12:32happen? Did anybody ever ask you that? I don't know if they asked me but they didn't have to because
170. 12:39it had occurred to me. But Alex, I was never tempted. This doesn't make me good. It just makes me
171. 12:49occupied. I was never tempted to ask why me. I was more interested in the question, what
172. 12:58does it mean? What comes from this? What should result from this? And the central issue that
173. 13:05I mentioned earlier, is there an afterlife? Jesus went there. The evidence seems to say
174. 13:13that, well, I go there and be with my great-grandmother and later with the mother, my wife and mother,
175. 13:20my four children. So that was the way it came down. That's the way I asked the problem of evil.
176. 13:27Will I be able to see these people again? Is there any hope?
177. 13:31You know, if you're just tuning in, Alex McFarland here, we're talking with Gary Habermas.
178. 13:36And, you know, people ask questions about a lot of things. Where did the Bible come from?
179. 13:42You know, what about Moses and the Exodus?
180. 13:44But I think maybe one of the most perennial questions is why.
181. 13:48Why this?
182. 13:49Why that good churchgoing family?
183. 13:52Why did this or that happen?
184. 13:54When we come back, we've got a brief break.
185. 13:56Let's talk about why and how do we with God's help and for God's glory,
186. 14:03how do we keep our eyes on the Lord, even in the face of pain?
187. 14:07even when we do not know the answer why bad things happen. Stay tuned folks this
188. 14:14is the American Family Radio Network. More with Dr. Gary Habermas, his next book on
189. 14:18the resurrection releases tomorrow and I'm sure you can find it wherever you buy.
190. 14:23Find books. We're gonna get some questions so stay tuned. We'll be back
191. 14:28more on AFR after this brief break. A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
192. 15:04God spoke, God used his words to create the universe.
193. 15:12God's words are powerful, but a very important truth
194. 15:16that God wants to convey to us in his word is that
195. 15:19our words are powerful as well.
196. 15:22Not saying they're as powerful as God's obviously,
197. 15:25but they are certainly much more powerful
198. 15:27than I think we tend to think.
199. 15:29Proverbs chapter 15 verse one,
200. 15:32A soft word turns away rad, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
201. 15:38All my words fruitful are the words that honor God,
202. 15:41that build God's kingdom, or are the words
203. 15:44I speak words that tear down, that cause difficulty
204. 15:47that make life tough.
205. 15:49Proverbs chapter 16 verse 24,
206. 15:51gracious words are like a honeycomb,
207. 15:54sweetness to the soul and health to the body.
208. 16:05Shiting light into the darkness,
209. 16:07This is the Hamilton Corner, an American family radio.
210. 16:12Welcome back, Alex McFarland here.
211. 16:14Hey, by the way, before we resume our conversation
212. 16:17with Dr. Gary Habermas.
213. 16:18Let me remind you about our speaker series.
214. 16:20We just had Dinesh D'Souza about a week ago.
215. 16:23It was phenomenal.
216. 16:24People came to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
217. 16:27from as far away as Indiana.
218. 16:29But coming up June 15, and this is not that far away,
219. 16:32we have Dr. Gary Chapman of the Five Love Languages.
220. 16:37And I often say this, I think Gary Chapman has saved more
221. 16:41marriages than maybe any other Christian author.
222. 16:44But if you go to my website,
223. 16:46alexmickfarlane.com slash conversations.
224. 16:50And the summer speaker series that we're doing,
225. 16:53we're in Myrtle Beach.
226. 16:55They've got a lot of theaters,
227. 16:56kind of like Branson, Missouri, a lot of music theaters.
228. 16:59And so we've rented a couple of theaters.
229. 17:01It's gonna be phenomenal.
230. 17:03Gary Chapman, the five love languages.
231. 17:06and we will have open mic Q&A.
232. 17:09And then later on in the summer,
233. 17:10Charlie Kirk, Lauren Green of Fox News,
234. 17:14a lot of things that we've got planned
235. 17:16and plus I'm on the road somewhere like every weekend.
236. 17:20You can see my tour schedule at alexmafarlane.com.
237. 17:24Well, I guess as Dr. Gary Habermas
238. 17:27and I would encourage you to check out his website
239. 17:29and his books.
240. 17:31You know, Dr. Habermas, it's been my joy.
241. 17:35I've kind of got this principle.
242. 17:36I don't recommend a book that I have not read myself at least once.
243. 17:41And I love to recommend your books because when it comes down to really the core facts
244. 17:48about the resurrection and the implications of what the empty tomb means, I mean, you're
245. 17:55the go-to guy.
246. 17:57So thank you so much for all the great content that you produce.
247. 18:01Well, Alex, anything that comes, I'd just say, you know, I'm not going to say anything
248. 18:06I'm not gonna live forever and I hope the words are out there.
249. 18:11Michael Cohen is the one who said to me years ago,
250. 18:14you need to stop and write all this stuff down.
251. 18:16I said, Mike, I've got a bunch of books on the resurrection.
252. 18:19I don't think I have to do anymore.
253. 18:21And Mike said, well, let me just tell you something.
254. 18:23And you know, Michael Cohen too, Mike can be,
255. 18:28I don't wanna say in your face,
256. 18:29but he can be pretty straight.
257. 18:32And he goes, well, great.
258. 18:34If you don't stop and write this stuff down,
259. 18:37then it's gonna die with you.
260. 18:39And that sentence, that sentence stunned me.
261. 18:43And I thought, Mike, I don't wanna give up a dozen years.
262. 18:48By the way, it took 13 years.
263. 18:50I said, I don't want to.
264. 18:51He goes, yeah, we'll let it die with you then.
265. 18:53And it just ate at me till I started doing it.
266. 18:56It was just really something.
267. 18:58Wow, well, I wanna get into a couple of things.
268. 19:02I wanna ask you how you would have responded
269. 19:05to a conversation I had a week ago.
270. 19:07But before the break, we were talking about
271. 19:10the passing of your wife, Debbie.
272. 19:13And I know a lot of people would resonate with this.
273. 19:19And I know it's the Holy Spirit,
274. 19:22but when you feel like you've been knocked to your knees
275. 19:29and dreams are shattered and your heart is broken,
276. 19:33How do you muster the maturity to trust God even in an unimaginably painful deep valley?
277. 19:45Well, I can tell you two, both fairly brief, but there were two lessons I learned.
278. 19:54My wife was dying upstairs in the bedroom from stomach cancer. Her sisters came down from Detroit
279. 20:00to be with us, one was a nurse, so she would hook her up to the sugar water to be fed
280. 20:10intravenously. I was downstairs alone while they were tending to her and I'd go up and sit with her,
281. 20:17but I was alone a lot. And as I said later in a book about her, I said that Joe and I became
282. 20:26really good friends. Now, I don't mean that I suffered anything like Job did, but I realized that
283. 20:36Job and I became buddies because I had lectured on Job for a few years before Deb died. And I used
284. 20:44to say this in a sentence, the theme of the book of Job is this, in my opinion. He never found out
285. 20:53why he suffered, but he also realized that nothing would have changed if he had found out because the
286. 21:01same things would have happened. So here's the theme. Job realized that he knew enough about God
287. 21:07to trust him and those things he didn't know. Let me say it again. Job realized that he knew
288. 21:14enough about God. It's a conclusion of the book. He knew enough about God to trust him and those
289. 21:20things he didn't know. I knew this was a world at that time. I knew this was a world that Jesus was
290. 21:27raised and the dead, but I didn't know why this stuff happened to me. And I thought, if God raised
291. 21:33Jesus, duh, I can trust him to know the reason. I don't know the reason he does. I'm going to leave
292. 21:41it there. The other one is I was studying the book of Hebrews. And Hebrews 5, it's a studying
293. 21:49comment we read right past and I didn't I read it many times and didn't catch it. The son suffered
294. 22:01right he suffered seriously but he suffered for the sake of obedience. He grew from the suffering. I
295. 22:11thought oh no not the son of God. He was strengthened by a suffering. He grew from a suffering and
296. 22:20And then my second conclusion then was,
297. 22:23when you think you're suffering,
298. 22:24here's a question for you.
299. 22:27Jesus suffered maybe as seriously as anybody ever lived
300. 22:31by crucifixion, not to mention theological aspects,
301. 22:35but here's the question.
302. 22:37And you're suffering, and my suffering,
303. 22:40do we think we should suffer any less than Jesus did?
304. 22:46Are we better?
305. 22:48Do we learn faster?
306. 22:50If I don't think I have a right to suffer any less than he does, then why am I blaming
307. 22:56God for what's going on when scripture says I learn and grow for my suffering too?
308. 23:02So those two things, Joel became a buddy and Jesus became a buddy during my suffering.
309. 23:09Is that what Philippians 3 10 is alluding to that?
310. 23:14We love the first half that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, yay.
311. 23:20the fellowship of his suffering.
312. 23:23And the fellowship of his sufferings.
313. 23:25And many times Paul says over and over again, he doesn't say it the way I'm going to say it.
314. 23:31But what he's saying is every time I take a blow for the Lord, in my preaching and being in the wrong place at the wrong time and be with people who can't stand what I believe.
315. 23:43He says, every time he tells the Philippians, he tells the Thessalonians, he says it over
316. 23:49and over again, he says, all my suffering is for your benefit and it'll come down to your
317. 24:00glory and it'll be to my glory too.
318. 24:04So he internalized his suffering as a great victory.
319. 24:08He said, I'm willing to take it because it means freedom for others, salvation for others.
320. 24:14And frankly, I think he would say it earns him rewards.
321. 24:17Although he didn't talk a lot about that.
322. 24:19He does say it a few times.
323. 24:22So a week ago Thursday, I was wrapping up a radio show, exploring the word that we've
324. 24:29done on the American Family Radio Network now for 15 years.
325. 24:33And you've been on that program before with me.
326. 24:37But I finished the show and a few minutes later my phone rang and it was a man that had
327. 24:43been in church his whole life and he's a computer programmer.
328. 24:49I've known this guy several years a little bit but anyway he's having a faith crisis.
329. 24:57So it calls me out and the number one person in his life was his grandfather and his dad
330. 25:05had left when he was young. And so this is very, a very key relationship. Well, the grandfather
331. 25:11died and he said he was in halfway through his grandfather's funeral and he had this,
332. 25:18you know, overwhelming shock that he didn't know if he believed in God or Christianity.
333. 25:24So I'm listening and he's, he said, you know, you can't really prove it. And he said, I just
334. 25:32don't know that I can have faith in things I can't see. So we talked for two
335. 25:38hours and I mean I was you know praying and doing my best to kind of talk him off
336. 25:44a ledge as it were. But I've got two things. One, at least in our ministry, it
337. 25:52seems like emotional pain is often the precursor to intellectual skepticism.
338. 25:59Yes.
339. 26:00The other thing, how do you, if somebody suddenly is saying, I can't do this faith thing, I need
340. 26:09proof.
341. 26:11I want something tangible and objective and provable.
342. 26:16How do you approach someone who's in that kind of a faith crisis?
343. 26:22I have several answers depending on where they are personally and where it would seem.
344. 26:28I'll ask some of them some questions and I'll try to move to the direction that they seem
345. 26:33to indicate would give them the most victory.
346. 26:37But one thing I want to say right off the bat, I usually go to this one first whether
347. 26:41they like it or not.
348. 26:43What you said about factual pain, philosophical pain often leads to emotional doubts.
349. 26:56of the worst things, maybe the worst things in our life, the loss of a husband or wife or child.
350. 27:03I mean, what's worse than the loss of a child or a husband or wife? And according to the statistics,
351. 27:13psychological tests have been done, once being done right now, surveys being done,
352. 27:18them, and as high as 70% or more of doubters doubt because of emotional reasons. And they
353. 27:30say they want proof, but very few are healed by getting something that we could call proof.
354. 27:42So I've talked to, I'm connected with three people who do ministry with doubters full-time.
355. 27:49And once talked to thousands of people, so have I cases, and you can give them the most
356. 27:55of them, you can give them evidences till they're blue in the face, quote unquote, literally.
357. 28:03And if they're having emotional doubts, they know how to ignore, they'll come right back
358. 28:13and they'll go, but how right now?
359. 28:15Well, here's your evidence.
360. 28:16And how do I know, as long as they're hurting, you have to give them bomb for their pain, not
361. 28:24facts for their doubts.
362. 28:27I think they need bomb of some kind.
363. 28:31And today the most powerful, I know, counselor, but I think the most powerful bomb today is
364. 28:38what you can learn from a secular or Christian counselor about, well, CS Lewis said it, learn
365. 28:45to tell your emotions where to get off. Lewis says unless you could tell your emotions where
366. 28:50to get off, you can't be a good Christian. You can't even be a good atheist. He says you'll
367. 28:57be a creature dithering to and fro dependent on the latest state of your digestion. And he
368. 29:05said if you can't master your emotions, don't look for an answer. I think that's I would tell
369. 29:11them that right up the bat because I think they have to do something with their emotions.
370. 29:15If it involves counseling, if it involves just working through them.
371. 29:18And then I would go, I personally would go to those other true answers.
372. 29:21Job, and do we deserve to suffer less than Jesus did?
373. 29:26You know, we're living in a generation where many, not all, but many think emotions, feelings
374. 29:34are the litmus test for truth.
375. 29:37And really, reality is not that way.
376. 29:42are not a reliable litmus test for truth, are they?
377. 29:45No, they're not. In fact, how you can prove that is, if you get something for your emotions
378. 29:53tonight, whether it's a pill, whether it's your favorite night out, whether it's being
379. 30:00with your favorite person, if you get that high to overcome this emotional upheaval,
380. 30:10the next morning. Where are you the next week? Where are you when the same question comes back?
381. 30:16And you think, I'll tell you, I've been there done that, you think the question is, give me
382. 30:23the evidence. And then someone shows you the evidence. And I'll say, not enough, what else you
383. 30:29got for me? Hey, you know what, those don't do it forever. You know,
384. 30:34Hey, I came across something in Augustine.
385. 30:37Oh, yeah.
386. 30:40Sixteen hundred years ago, Augustine, he lived three fifty four to four thirty.
387. 30:46He said, and I just came across this nugget talking about the perennial doubter.
388. 30:52He said, what then can I aduce to convince those who refuse to believe?
389. 30:58They refuse to believe these facts, in other words, the gospel, unless we can show them
390. 31:05or prove by ocular demonstration or adequate testimony.
391. 31:10Okay, ocular demonstration.
392. 31:11Show me something I can see.
393. 31:14Give me adequate testimony.
394. 31:15And Augustine said, but when we do, they say not that, not that.
395. 31:22And I was reading this and I don't know if it was confessions or city of God, but okay,
396. 31:30even 1600 years ago, people were saying, give me some ocular testimony.
397. 31:34And then when we try to do that, says Augustine, they say, no, not that, not that.
398. 31:39I mean, human nature hasn't changed a whole lot, has it?
399. 31:43It has not. It has not. You know, Alex, that'll be the change of subject. But a third thing I go to,
400. 31:50I go through emotional doubt, last question of fourth, then the job, then the Jesus,
401. 31:56do we deserve to suffer less than him? The fourth thing I talk about is some of the
402. 32:01incredibly strong data for near-death experiences.
403. 32:06If there's an afterlife, if there's an afterlife to me,
404. 32:10that's the closest we can come in our life.
405. 32:13I can't see Jesus today,
406. 32:15but I can read testimonies of people
407. 32:18who had ocular experiences when they're brain.
408. 32:22There are dozens of cases now of, as far as we know,
409. 32:25no brain, no heart working, no neurology.
410. 32:30and the person has experiences that can be verified
411. 32:33from two blocks, five blocks, 10 miles,
412. 32:36a hundred miles away.
413. 32:39And the experience can be verified.
414. 32:41To me, that's ocular.
415. 32:43So if you're one of those rare people, really rare,
416. 32:46who can be solved by ocular experiences
417. 32:49and you lost somebody close to you,
418. 32:52tell that person you could be with them someday.
419. 32:54Hand tight, we've got to take a break.
420. 32:56More on the American Family Radio Network
421. 32:58with our very special guest Dr. Gary Habermas.
422. 33:01Stay tuned.
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434. 33:38All right, Sandy Rios with you.
435. 33:40One more drama playing out.
436. 33:42Is the sky falling?
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448. 34:08The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Bitted Commentaries
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450. 34:18Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
451. 34:23Welcome back to the program.
452. 34:24What a blessing to be conversing with Dr. Gary Habermas,
453. 34:28prolific author, apologetics leader.
454. 34:31And Google, his name, his website, his name.
455. 34:35Is it Ghabbermass.com Gary is you W. W. W. W.
456. 34:46Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, it's Gary Habbermass.com Gary
457. 34:52Habbermass Gary Habbermass.com you're right out. You know,
458. 34:56one time I had a group of students at our house and we had Dr.
459. 34:59Norm Geisler and this, you know, we had 20 college students and
460. 35:04this one student said, this is so great. This is like the
461. 35:08apologetics jukebox and we can ask Norm Geisler anything.
462. 35:14And I kind of feel that way tonight.
463. 35:15It's like the apologetics jukebox.
464. 35:17We can ask anything and we do have some calls.
465. 35:21I want to get to in just a moment the number
466. 35:23if you have a question it's triple eight, five, eight,
467. 35:26nine, 88, 40.
468. 35:27Before the break Dr. Habermas you were talking
469. 35:29about near death experiences.
470. 35:31And I would love to, for you have been with me
471. 35:35I was in Austin, Texas a couple of years ago.
472. 35:38And one of the people that was at this event
473. 35:41was an administrator of several hospitals.
474. 35:44And he asked me to come and speak to the staff
475. 35:48at this Palativ Care Hospital.
476. 35:51So I was there, and I'm thinking, you know,
477. 35:54what do I say to these people?
478. 35:55And suddenly I found myself in a room with about 150 people.
479. 35:59There were a lot of doctors, a lot of nurses,
480. 36:01and I thought, you know, what do I say?
481. 36:03How do I bond with this audience?
482. 36:06And I got up and I said, you know, thank you,
483. 36:09it's really great to be here.
484. 36:10And then here's how I opened it.
485. 36:13I said, hey, you all make people comfortable
486. 36:17in their final days and weeks.
487. 36:20This is a great ministry, this hospital, end of life care.
488. 36:25How many of you have seen things in the context
489. 36:29of caring with dying people?
490. 36:32How many of you have seen things that make you believe
491. 36:35in an afterlife.
492. 36:37You've seen things that make you believe the soul survives death.
493. 36:41And it was quiet for a moment, then little by little hands
494. 36:44begin to go up.
495. 36:45And Dr. Habermas, there were a lot of doctors that were Indian.
496. 36:51And they would say things like, well, I'm not religious,
497. 36:55but I was at the bedside of a dying woman.
498. 36:57And she said, I see Jesus.
499. 37:00And for the next hour and a half, we are story after story
500. 37:06from nurses and doctors.
501. 37:07One of the interesting things was all of the accounts
502. 37:11of these people on their deathbed that said Jesus
503. 37:16was in the room.
504. 37:17And I mean, some of the stories are just almost hard
505. 37:20to believe, I believe them, but they were talking about
506. 37:23at the moment of death, the room got very bright.
507. 37:27And I remarked to the group that all of the accounts
508. 37:32really were overtly Christian in context.
509. 37:36But if you would speak to it, isn't there more and more data
510. 37:41that indicates from the medical world,
511. 37:44there are the soul surviving physical death?
512. 37:50I mean, it's pretty compelling, isn't it?
513. 37:55Yeah, I'm looking over the section of my library
514. 37:59that has those books.
515. 38:00And these books are, the professionals at RIDAM,
516. 38:04they're rarely religious in nature.
517. 38:06They don't talk about religions being true or whatever.
518. 38:09They just give data.
519. 38:11And one of the books by an MD,
520. 38:14every article in the book was published in a medical journal.
521. 38:17And the conclusion of the book is that
522. 38:21in North America alone,
523. 38:23as nearly as the medical community can estimate
524. 38:28at least 20 million people in the last few decades,
525. 38:3220 million have had near death experiences.
526. 38:36This is not like a, oh, I'm not gonna put my faith
527. 38:39in something that happens four or five times
528. 38:42or a hundred or 200 times.
529. 38:44How about 20 million?
530. 38:45And that's this book written by an MD
531. 38:49and everybody writing the book,
532. 38:52the articles were published in medical journals.
533. 38:54So then I'll tell you one thing,
534. 38:57There are now over 48 accounts of cases that are flat brain, flat heart, as far as we can tell.
535. 39:04We don't have proof, but as far as we can tell, no heart, no brain, so no neurology.
536. 39:12And in every one of those cases, things are reported from long distances. Sometimes right
537. 39:18in the room, but sometimes a long way miles away. And you can go check from a police report,
538. 39:26from all kind of things you can check now what do you do with the brains not
539. 39:30operating
540. 39:31and they're reporting things that's that a key to me alex that's the a like your
541. 39:36word that's the ocular
542. 39:37word from augustin
543. 39:40yes
544. 39:41well powerful
545. 39:42we've got calls uh... let's begin in texas paul in texas thanks for holding
546. 39:47welcome to our conversation with gary habermas
547. 39:50thank you for having me gentlemen i appreciate it
548. 39:54I really just had a comment many years ago, it was revealed to me that our emotions are
549. 40:02actually, they follow our thoughts.
550. 40:05And the example that was used that really spelled it out for me, that if we go to a scary
551. 40:10movie, when this movie gets scary, not only do your emotions respond with fear, even your
552. 40:16body will respond with an increased heart rate and maybe the hair stands up on your arms
553. 40:21or neck.
554. 40:22But yet we're just sitting in a theater watching people play out parts and we know that it's not real.
555. 40:31But yet our body responds because we're thinking as though it is real.
556. 40:36And so if you're emotions, you cannot trust your emotions because they're purely following your thoughts.
557. 40:43And if your thoughts are false, then your emotions will be false.
558. 40:48Well said. Any response in light of the gospel or our Christian want Dr. Habermas?
559. 40:56Well, just emotions. There's an example I use all the time because I hang around with a bunch
560. 41:01of guys who are football nuts or hockey nuts. And they might go to work on a Monday and say,
561. 41:08somebody messed my desk up. When I left here Friday, it was clean. But if somebody must have come in,
562. 41:14my desk is covered with work. And this just really ticks me off. And you get up to get a cup of
563. 41:18coffee and some Monday and you think to yourself, wait a minute.
564. 41:22It's Monday. Monday night football and you say to yourself, yes, okay, I've been watching
565. 41:29Monday night football for decades. I know it was Monday night football, but I remember
566. 41:35it was tonight. Here's what my yes means. When I get home, the phone goes off, the lights
567. 41:43go off. I'm in my man cave. I turned the game on and leave me alone where I want to be. And
568. 41:54that's how I was okay with that work in my office because if I finish it, fine. If I don't,
569. 42:01great. Football's on tonight. And that's how strong the emotions are. And we can make up,
570. 42:08we can respond that way to things around us so that we can control what's going on. That's
571. 42:12That's what you learn in a lot of, again, I'm not a counselor, but that's what you learn
572. 42:16how to do in a lot of counseling situations.
573. 42:21I'm going to come back to that.
574. 42:22I want to get as many people in as we're able.
575. 42:25Matthew and Arkansas.
576. 42:26Matthew, welcome to our conversation with Gary Habermat.
577. 42:29Hello.
578. 42:31Thank you for having me.
579. 42:32I just had a question about the passage, the famous passage in which Christ has called
580. 42:38why have you proceeded to meet?
581. 42:41And I'll be just coming across some questions, like, is because we think of Christ and God
582. 42:49as the same thing, even though that's kind of possible for a human brain to really understand.
583. 42:54But is it a case that in some way God knew that was going to happen?
584. 43:00Like in the case that it was sort of staged or sort of like he knew what was going on?
585. 43:07Or was it the case that there was for a moment like some doubt of God like nothing about?
586. 43:15Like I'm just a little confused thinking about that passage.
587. 43:20Matthew 2746, Dr. Habermas, do you want to comment on that?
588. 43:28When Jesus cried from the cross, He's actually quoting Psalm 22, my God, my God, why is thou
589. 43:34forsaken me?
590. 43:36What was happening there, Gary?
591. 43:41Well, first of all, personally, I don't believe Jesus sinned, but I don't think emotions have
592. 43:48to be sinful.
593. 43:51New Testament says, be angry and sin not.
594. 43:54We can have strong emotions and not be sinning.
595. 43:57But I think Jesus was having legitimate questions.
596. 44:01We knew from John the Baptist.
597. 44:03He sends his disciples to Jesus.
598. 44:05Are you the Messiah?
599. 44:07And what's part two?
600. 44:09Or should we look for someone else?
601. 44:12Whoa, John, you're thinking about looking for someone else?
602. 44:15Well, John didn't say that, but he said,
603. 44:17are you the guy?
604. 44:18Or do we have to go elsewhere?
605. 44:20And Jesus said, well, go tell him the miracles I'm doing,
606. 44:23which is evidence.
607. 44:24But John asked questions, Thomas asked questions,
608. 44:28Paul had questions, Abraham had questions,
609. 44:33David had questions.
610. 44:35We're human beings.
611. 44:37God knows who we are in our weaknesses, and I think we have to control them.
612. 44:44I think we should do things about them.
613. 44:45If you're in enough pain, you're going to do something about them.
614. 44:48But I don't think having the emotions alone is like something that's horrible.
615. 44:53I think God invites emotions the same way God invites everybody else,
616. 44:58common to be all you who labor are heavy laden, I'll give you rest.
617. 45:02There is rest for those who are having these struggles.
618. 45:05Dr. Habermas, those words from Psalm 22, Psalm 22 begins, my God, my God, but it also contains,
619. 45:18they pierced my hands and my feet.
620. 45:19Psalm 22, which is a real messianic psalm, could it be in a way that, I mean, all of
621. 45:27the pious Jews watching the Lord be crucified?
622. 45:30I mean, they would have intimately understood the Scriptures.
623. 45:34it in a way almost saying, oh, you know, you want to understand what you're seeing here,
624. 45:40Psalm 22, Psalm 22. I mean, do you think any of the super religious Jews would have maybe
625. 45:48connected the dots and said, oh, wow, he's quoting from Psalm 22. And they've pierced his
626. 45:57hands and his feet. He's the Messiah. What would that realization perhaps come to any
627. 46:02of them. Alex, I picked up a book, a very learned book by a professor at a major, major
628. 46:10university. And this fellow was Jewish. And he did not like Christianity. And he tells his
629. 46:17story because he's he came to believe in the resurrection of Jesus is as C.S. Lewis says
630. 46:25he came into the kingdom kicking and screaming. And I haven't just like you haven't followed
631. 46:31couple things here yourself. He tells the story that Isaiah chapter 53 is well known in Hebrew thought.
632. 46:41And he wants to go back and dig some of this research out of the Jewish upbringing that he had. And he
633. 46:48wants to find out what part Isaiah 53 played. That early Kree to 1 Corinthians 15. Jesus died, was
634. 46:56buried rose and appeared twice as says according to the scriptures that's the
635. 47:01Old Testament so here's this fellow saying whatever happened to all these Jewish
636. 47:05commentaries and he gives he probably gives 15 examples from the Jewish
637. 47:10literature not not the Old Testament commentary on the Old Testament and what
638. 47:16they did was some of these passages and you know and by the way I want to go to
639. 47:21Quinn in Mississippi. Have you, I'm sure you've heard of Rabbi Rashi that is supposedly
640. 47:27one of the greatest Jewish rabbis that ever lived. Rabbi Rashi, and I think he lived about
641. 47:33a thousand years ago. And we don't know how much he did or didn't believe, but Rabbi
642. 47:41Rashi said, whoever the Messiah was, if there was going to be a Messiah, he had to have come
643. 47:48after the decree to rebuild walls of Jerusalem and before the Roman
644. 47:54besiegement in AD 70.
645. 47:58So I'm and this is a non-Christian Jewish rabbi and I'm like, okay, sure, I'll take that window of time.
646. 48:04I think there was there was someone in that window
647. 48:08after the decree to rebuild the walls and before AD 70, there was someone born in Bethlehem.
648. 48:15There was someone crucified it pass over. There was someone who met all the criteria for
649. 48:21Messiahship and it was Jesus. Quinn in Mississippi, time fleets away. Do you have a question for
650. 48:28Gary Habermas? Yes, sir. Alice, I love listening to you, man. Thanks for what you do.
651. 48:34Bless you. In 1995, I got in a bad Jeep wreck. When they found me, I wasn't breathing. I was
652. 48:39I was going to come up for 13 days.
653. 48:41And I don't know if I had an experience
654. 48:44or after or anything like that.
655. 48:47But I was wondering, is it a sin or would it not be good
656. 48:50for me to get hypnotized to see if anything comes up?
657. 48:55I would not recommend it,
658. 48:56but Gary Habermas, what do you say?
659. 48:59I wouldn't recommend it either.
660. 49:00Years ago, there was a real trend
661. 49:04toward that being the answer to a lot of things.
662. 49:07Until in the literature again, this isn't my field counseling is not my field
663. 49:13But they found in the literature that a lot of people under hypnosis
664. 49:17actually invented
665. 49:20Experiences that they thought they lived I don't mean forgiving other lives out of tongue
666. 49:25Gary Habermas forgive me sir. We have to do this again folks. Thanks for listening
667. 49:29I want to appreciate my guest dr. Gary Habermas check out his brand new book it releases tomorrow
668. 49:35Stay tuned to a for may God bless you
669. 49:39The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.