Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Dr. Gary Habermas, Distinguished Research Prof of Apologetics & Philosophy

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:03It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:07This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:11It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:27Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:29and now the Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:31In the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 17, the apostle Paul writes that if
12. 0:39Christ has not risen from the dead, we have no hope.
13. 0:43Our faith is vain.
14. 0:44We're yet in our sins.
15. 0:47And Paul lays out a lot of tragic outcomes.
16. 0:50If Jesus did not rise from the dead, we do not have a gospel and we do not have hope.
17. 0:56but he goes on and Paul says, but Christ is risen indeed.
18. 1:02Alex McFarland here, you're listening
19. 1:03to the American Family Radio Network
20. 1:05and we've got a great show tonight, folks.
21. 1:07You don't wanna miss the next hour of radio
22. 1:10and we're gonna have a great conversation
23. 1:11with one of really the world's preeminent scholars
24. 1:14on the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
25. 1:16the reality of Jesus and his atonement.
26. 1:20And then we will take questions later on in the show.
27. 1:23So I can, with utter confidence, predict,
28. 1:26this hour will be informative, will be inspirational, and you will not be disappointed. I hope
29. 1:32you had a good Easter, I hope you're having a good week. And if you recognize my voice,
30. 1:38it's probably from the show Exploring the Word that is her life five days a week on
31. 1:42the American Family Radio Network now in our 15th year of exploring the Word. But I have
32. 1:48the privilege of sitting in on shows like tonight. And I just could not be more thrilled
33. 1:55to introduce the voice you're about to hear.
34. 1:57Dr. Gary Habermas for decades has studied the resurrection
35. 2:02written on ancient evidence for the life of Christ
36. 2:05and really scholars of every background would concur
37. 2:10that he is the preeminent voice on the resurrection of Jesus
38. 2:15and what that means.
39. 2:16And I want to say in addition to being a person whose books
40. 2:20I highly recommend, he's a friend.
41. 2:22He was my professor in graduate school
42. 2:25And Angie and I just believe he's like family.
43. 2:28He's a beloved figure to us and to millions everywhere.
44. 2:32It's Gary Habermas and he's our guest right now on AFR.
45. 2:36Dr. Habermas, welcome.
46. 2:39Well, welcome to you too, Alex.
47. 2:44It was good the minute I heard your voice.
48. 2:46We haven't talked for a little while,
49. 2:48but when I think about all the programs we've been on,
50. 2:50everyone has been out of fine.
51. 2:52Everyone has been ministerial
52. 2:54And that's what I appreciate most of all.
53. 2:56We both try to point to the Lord and not to ourselves.
54. 2:59And so it's an honor to be on with you.
55. 3:02Well, you know, you're one of those friends that,
56. 3:06you know, we might talk once a year
57. 3:08or maybe once every 15 months or something,
58. 3:11but we always just pick it right back up.
59. 3:14And you stay busy, we all stay,
60. 3:18we keep a pretty full dance card.
61. 3:20But for those that don't know,
62. 3:23I want to lay out a little bit of your background.
63. 3:25How many years have you been at Liberty University?
64. 3:29I, well, I came from two previous schools,
65. 3:32but I've been by far, I've been at Liberty longest.
66. 3:36I came in 1981, so what is that?
67. 3:4044 years.
68. 3:41I'm sorry, but it's 44 years, is that work out?
69. 3:45Yeah, yeah.
70. 3:4644 years, yeah.
71. 3:48No, God's curious.
72. 3:50Did you go into apologetics specifically to write and research on the resurrection or
73. 3:59what were your goals in entering academia those years ago?
74. 4:04Well, I had no goals of entering academia and way back at the beginning, I went through,
75. 4:12well, for me at least, very serious doubts. They went on for 10 straight years and intermittently
76. 4:19for 10 straight years, 10 years after. And the closest person in my life, in fact, let me
77. 4:29say it this way, my doubts, my years of doubts were formed by the deaths of the two closest
78. 4:36people in my life, one at the beginning and one at the end. And when the family member died
79. 4:46by great grandmother, who was the closest, closer to my parents, and my parents knew that,
80. 4:51They were very pleased with it.
81. 4:53But when she died, a few years later,
82. 4:59I started having questions about the afterlife.
83. 5:02Can we be sure there's anything there?
84. 5:04And that's probably spurned on by the anxiety caused by death.
85. 5:09And I started wondering immediately if Christianity were true.
86. 5:16And people started making suggestions.
87. 5:19I started buying books and people would say,
88. 5:23well go look at creation evolution,
89. 5:26which later became intelligent design,
90. 5:29or look at prophecy, look at the reliability of New Testament,
91. 5:34look at archeology.
92. 5:36And I thought, I read enough to say, yeah,
93. 5:41and I knew none of that, but I thought that's good,
94. 5:46but it doesn't tell me that I have nothing to fear,
95. 5:50doesn't answer my questions, doesn't tell me there's an afterlife.
96. 5:54And one day, I'm in my study right now,
97. 5:57but you can see how messy it is.
98. 5:59But I've got a book to my left that had this sentence in it.
99. 6:04And it wasn't detailed, but the writer said,
100. 6:07if Jesus was raised from the dead,
101. 6:11then what he taught was true,
102. 6:14because God wouldn't raise a hair tick from the dead.
103. 6:17And I thought, and that makes more sense to me than any evidence I've studied, but here's the problem.
104. 6:26I have no evidence. I have no knowledge of any evidence where Jesus is raised in the dead.
105. 6:32So that launched me into the resurrection, not only for not thinking about teaching, but not even
106. 6:40thinking about meeting other people's needs. To be frank, I was concerned about my own doubt.
107. 6:49And one more thing, Alex, I've said a lot of times in print now that late at the end of
108. 6:56my doubt, I came close to becoming a Buddhist, not the kind of religious Buddhism that we
109. 7:03define, but the kind of Buddhism where there were a number of scholars who were saying Buddhism
110. 7:12is the proper metaphysics for modern day physics.
111. 7:16the religion behind the new physics and I got into that and and so on. But what I don't tell
112. 7:24what a lot of people know is that came after my PhD. So what I'm saying is these doubts were
113. 7:31things I had as a kid and mom and dad led me through them and so on and so on. After a PhD,
114. 7:39my most worrisome doubt was still ahead of me. And then shortly after that, the wife and mother of my
115. 7:46four children died of stomach cancer. So death, thankfully my doubts were gone just shortly,
116. 7:54a few years before that time. So that's my pilgrimage. It was answering my own questions.
117. 7:59And to think now that I started wondering what can I know about the resurrection and
118. 8:08the rest is out there for everybody to see?
119. 8:10In speaking of the resurrection, in Luke 24, Jesus says,
120. 8:17touch me, you'll see that a spirit half not flesh and bones,
121. 8:21as you see me have.
122. 8:23And in John 21, the resurrected Jesus ate with the disciples.
123. 8:29So when we say Jesus rose, this is not some amorphous ghost.
124. 8:34I mean, this is very, very tangible, a physical resurrection, right?
125. 8:40Yeah, you know, it's funny you're saying that I was reading what one of the things I'd written on this just today. I pulled the book out to look at it because I was writing to a person.
126. 8:53And I in the part, the part I pulled out was about the bodily nature of the resurrection appearances. And the strange thing is many critics today don't like the gospels, but they like Paul.
127. 9:09In the old days, they would give you the major books written by Paul, seven of them for sure,
128. 9:16nobody disputes.
129. 9:17You can pull them out and use them.
130. 9:19They don't think they're inspired, but they think they're reliable in the sense that Paul
131. 9:23was honest and a scholar and ethical.
132. 9:28And today, I've read just recently a few places that the majority of critical scholars think
133. 9:37that Jesus appeared bodily. Now there are different definitions of bodily as even in the
134. 9:42evangelical camp, but there are different definitions of bodily. But the point is they get that from
135. 9:48Paul. So you're right. It's strong in the gospels, but they get it from Paul alone and
136. 9:58they still think Jesus appeared bodily.
137. 10:02And again, if Jesus rose, what do we know?
138. 10:06If Christ rose and the evidence is compelling that he did, as he said, what do we know?
139. 10:13What are we sure of in light of that undeniable resurrection?
140. 10:20Okay.
141. 10:21To me, that's a couple of questions.
142. 10:24You got the truth of the resurrection and you've got the meaning of the resurrection.
143. 10:30I think the truth to the resurrection, I can state it pretty briefly.
144. 10:34I develop an argument for the resurrection, which I call the minimal facts.
145. 10:41I think a half dozen facts, and I argue that these half dozen, which are conceded by almost
146. 10:48every scholar, not everybody who throws his hat in the ring and says, I'm a scholar, but
147. 10:54there's no credentials.
148. 10:57who could be atheists, agnostics, skeptics, unbelievers of some other religion, they will tell you
149. 11:08that the following six things are true. Jesus died by crucifixion. Secondly, is disciples had
150. 11:15experiences which they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus? And these atheist-to-tesmuscholars
151. 11:22They'll go, oh yeah, the disciples had real experiences and they really believed it.
152. 11:27I don't because I'm an atheist, they'll go on to say, but I believe they did.
153. 11:34And then thirdly, they started talking about those experiences immediately, which means
154. 11:40fourthly, we've got some very early reports that Jesus was raised.
155. 11:46Now, these are called Cretal traditions.
156. 11:48predate the Gospels by far and most scholars that give dates put these things
157. 11:58in the 30s AD. A couple of scholars say immediately Jimmy Dunn seems to say that
158. 12:04the resurrection traditions happened the same year. He says within months and if
159. 12:12the crucifixion is in spring, which we know, there are months left in that year.
160. 12:18So that story could have come out the same year. So those are four things. He died. They believed they saw him.
161. 12:27They began talking about it. It was formalized into a tradition already. And then two skeptics come to know the Lord.
162. 12:36The brother of Jesus, James, who was an unbeliever, were told
163. 12:41more than once by multiple attestation and he later was martyred according to Josephus,
164. 12:51he becomes a believer when Jesus appeared to him and lastly the Apostle Paul, which virtually
165. 12:59nobody disputes had a real experience on the road to Damascus. So they're six. Now I
166. 13:05I know the empty tomb in there sometimes, not as part of the six, but because the evidence
167. 13:11for the empty tomb is very, very strong.
168. 13:14It's not nearly as widely accepted by critical scholars, but the number of critical scholars,
169. 13:20well, between a couple of recent books on the resurrection I've written, the number of critical
170. 13:26scholars in two surveys I did on the empty tomb has moved up from two thirds to 80%.
171. 13:32But the other six are the ones I call the minimal facts, not the empty tomb.
172. 13:37And those six, those who admit them, the percentage is very, very high.
173. 13:42I don't ever put a percentage on those six, but the critics who allow them, they're virtually
174. 13:49not going to stop you when you use them in a dialogue.
175. 13:52We've got a break coming up for those just tuning in.
176. 13:55We're talking with Dr. Gary Habermas, the world expert on the resurrection of Christ.
177. 14:00got a number of books I highly recommend his books. Before we take our first break a website
178. 14:06where can people find your work online and get your books? Well a couple I have a website
179. 14:13www.girihabramass.com that easily no dot spells whistles just the whole first name Gary Habermas
180. 14:25dot com and then I have a youtube channel which people can look up and find and I don't know how
181. 14:31how many things are there, Alex.
182. 14:32I might be very close to or just over 300 interviews that are there.
183. 14:37Some of them are very short.
184. 14:38Some of them are very long.
185. 14:40But there's a lot of you.
186. 14:41Hey, hold on.
187. 14:42Forget me.
188. 14:43We've got to take a break.
189. 14:44The American Family Radio Network, Alex McParland,
190. 14:47and our very special guest, Gary Habermas.
191. 14:49Plus your calls and questions later on in the show.
192. 14:51Say, tune.
193. 14:52We're back after this.
194. 15:02A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
195. 15:05The most exciting, fulfilling, and satisfying life
196. 15:07You can possibly live is the life you live as you walk out God's call on your life.
197. 15:13The wisest and best life you can possibly live is the life of embracing and running after
198. 15:18the call of God.
199. 15:19But his calling on your life must be accepted and then lived out faithfully.
200. 15:24You can accept his calling and live it out by the power of the Holy Spirit and become
201. 15:29a great blessing to the world.
202. 15:31Or you can run from your calling.
203. 15:33Our doing so will only lead to a very frustrated,
204. 15:37unfulfilled life.
205. 15:38It will result in a waste of a lot of money,
206. 15:41energy and time if you run from your calling.
207. 15:44And be aware of this, wasted time is wasted life.
208. 15:48Then maybe after years of frustration,
209. 15:51if you live long enough,
210. 15:53maybe you can say, okay God,
211. 15:55I will now do what you told me to do years ago.
212. 16:06Shiting light into the darkness,
213. 16:08This is the Hamilton Corner, on American Family Radio.
214. 16:13Welcome back to the program.
215. 16:14Alex McFarland honored to be speaking with Dr. Gary Habermas.
216. 16:17We'll resume our conversation with him in just a moment.
217. 16:20I want to make you aware of a lot that's going on.
218. 16:23We've got seven summer camps, but we've also
219. 16:26got a speaker series at my own website, which is
220. 16:29AlexMcFarland.com.
221. 16:32And I want to ask you to go to the website,
222. 16:34AlexMcFarland.com slash Conversations.
223. 16:37May 4th is our first of several speakers
224. 16:41over the course of the summer.
225. 16:43Now, I'm on the road traveling everywhere.
226. 16:45I'm somewhere every weekend.
227. 16:47But May 4th, the first of our biblical worldview lectures.
228. 16:53And we're going to be in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina,
229. 16:56and Dinesh D'Souza.
230. 16:58Some years ago, Dinesh D'Souza made a pretty big splash
231. 17:01with a book, a Defending Christianity.
232. 17:04We organized a number of debates
233. 17:06where he debated Christopher Hitchens,
234. 17:08and Dinesh, no kidding folks,
235. 17:10he's one of the most powerful speakers
236. 17:12you'll ever hear in your life.
237. 17:13Brilliant, just knowledgeable on so many topics,
238. 17:17May 4th, so please pray, promote, plan to attend.
239. 17:22Then in June, we've got Dr. Gary Chapman, I'm sorry.
240. 17:26Gary Chapman that wrote the Five Love Languages,
241. 17:29Charlie Kirk, so pray for our speaker series, if you would.
242. 17:33Pray for our youth camps.
243. 17:35We'll have 1200 teenagers in seven camps all over the country.
244. 17:40And the website for that is equipretreat.org.
245. 17:43And one last thing, folks, the Cove, the Billy Graham Training
246. 17:47Center in Western North Carolina.
247. 17:48I'll be there July 18th through 20th,
248. 17:51teaching the book of Job.
249. 17:54And if you want to do a deep dive on apologetics,
250. 17:57Angie and I will be back at the Cove, July 28th through August 1
251. 18:01with our friend Jay Warner Wallace.
252. 18:03Jim Wallace, who wrote Cold Case Christianity.
253. 18:06So I give God the glory.
254. 18:08This is our 20th summer at the Cove.
255. 18:11And if you've never been, it is fantastic.
256. 18:13You don't want to miss it.
257. 18:15You'll be glad you came to the Cove.
258. 18:17The website for that is thecove.org.
259. 18:21Well, we're talking with Gary Habermas.
260. 18:23And I just always love to hear the things he's doing,
261. 18:28the scholarship that he's engaged in.
262. 18:31And Dr. Habermas, first of all, welcome back,
263. 18:33and thank you for your time being with us.
264. 18:35Before the break, you mentioned Kretal statements.
265. 18:39And I think this is really, really exciting.
266. 18:42And I know you mentioned James Dunn, who talks about,
267. 18:46you know, very, very, very early,
268. 18:48close to the time of the crucifixion.
269. 18:50The early church was, you know, making these statements
270. 18:54of belief that affirmed the basics of the gospel.
271. 18:57But talk about these.
272. 18:59Where in the New Testament are these Kretal statements?
273. 19:02And why do you think they're significant?
274. 19:06Well, there are a number of them, many,
275. 19:10and there's a few different species of them.
276. 19:14They are, start at the beginning,
277. 19:18the disciples start preaching right away.
278. 19:20Gert Ludeman, who passed away a few years ago,
279. 19:24a German atheist or testament scholar,
280. 19:27says the disciples started preaching
281. 19:29about their experience that they thought
282. 19:32was the resurrection of Jesus,
283. 19:33they started preaching that experience immediately.
284. 19:36Okay, the things they started preaching,
285. 19:41the short pithy one liners became,
286. 19:48or I guess you'd say memorized,
287. 19:50you'd have to, the Jews were much better at it than we are.
288. 19:53And these are reproduced in the New Testament.
289. 19:56They came during apostolic times,
290. 19:59We have other kinds, for example, early in the book of Acts.
291. 20:02Acts 1 through 5, these are chapters, Acts 1 through 5, 10, 13.
292. 20:07You have what are called sermon summaries.
293. 20:10And these are the little pithy sermons preached by the disciples,
294. 20:16and according to Luke, but these have some pithy little phrases in them.
295. 20:20They're called sermon summaries, but they're creeds.
296. 20:23Creed's are early oral comments that Paul presents more than any of them.
297. 20:31And as one skeptic says, when he went, this is a skeptic, he said, when Paul went to Jerusalem,
298. 20:38three years after his conversion, this is mid 30s, when Paul went to Jerusalem, three years after
299. 20:45his conversion, he spent two weeks, 15 days with Paul, with Peter and James, a brother of Jesus.
300. 20:53And this skeptic says, Paul may have gotten all the creeds that he quotes in his epistles right there.
301. 21:00Now, we know these creeds because for a couple, I mean a couple of them, best known one, 1 Corinthians 15,
302. 21:07verse 3 starts out, I gave you what I was given. These are technical words in the Hebrew or
303. 21:16air map behind the Greek. These are technical words from past down tradition. You go bingo,
304. 21:22Paul was a Pharisee. What does Josephus tell us about parapharities? They passed on tradition.
305. 21:28Paul says, I'm giving you tradition. I call that phrase. There's another one in chapter 11.
306. 21:34I received the night that Jesus would be correct. He took bread and blessed it. Then he took the cup.
307. 21:44That's a creed. Another really well-known one. Close to John 3 16 probably as far as
308. 21:49John 3 16 is not a creed, but very close to how memorized it is Romans 10 9. If we confess
309. 21:58with our mouth that Jesus was raised from the dead, if we confess with our mouth that
310. 22:05confess that the Lord Jesus is Lord and he was raised in the dead alive eternal life.
311. 22:13You're saved. That's an early creed. Romans 1, 3 and 4 are really good examples. Philippians
312. 22:20tool where Isaiah God says every knee will bow every tongue will confess and in that book
313. 22:27I will not share my glory with another and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
314. 22:33Well now the early church applies that to Jesus and says that's what the Father's blessings.
315. 22:38So these are early statements that defend the gospel and I'll just end with this.
316. 22:45whenever the gospel is defined in the New Testament, those early chapters and
317. 22:49acts, a pistol or Paul and elsewhere, it's always at least these three things.
318. 22:55D. D. death resurrection.
319. 22:57D. D. death resurrection take Romans 10, nine is maybe a best one verse summary.
320. 23:02If you confess to your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that
321. 23:05God's reason is the dead, you'll be saved.
322. 23:08Those are creeds and Paul went to Jerusalem to check them out.
323. 23:12We would say what the horse's mouth, so to speak.
324. 23:14He went there to get that from the eyewitnesses.
325. 23:18Paul was an eyewitness, but of a single appearance later.
326. 23:21He went to Jerusalem after his trip to Damascus.
327. 23:28And he asked, we're told, that he asked Peter and James
328. 23:34about the gospel data, if it was as he said it was.
329. 23:39And they confirmed his view.
330. 23:41That's in Galatians one and two.
331. 23:43and critics that's one of the books that
332. 23:45pricks will not argue with you about
333. 23:47they'll give you a glacial one and two in a heartbeat
334. 23:49and pol checked out these
335. 23:52so
336. 23:52we know they're backed up
337. 23:54so this is important because especially
338. 23:57you know we we've all heard
339. 23:59uh... you know
340. 24:00i had professors at you and c greensboro that
341. 24:04you know they said well christianity was
342. 24:06you know came about
343. 24:07hundreds of years later after the life of christ if there even was a jesus
344. 24:12But know the core elements of the gospel,
345. 24:16deity death, resurrection, and we receive that by faith.
346. 24:20That's early, that's not centuries,
347. 24:23but very, very close to the time of the crucifixion
348. 24:27and resurrection.
349. 24:28And by the way, folks, I'm gonna give the number,
350. 24:30if you've got a question,
351. 24:31could be about the resurrection,
352. 24:32could be about apologetics for our special guest,
353. 24:36Dr. Gary Habermas, the number is
354. 24:38Triple 8, 5, 8, 9, 88, 40,
355. 24:42Triple 8, 5, 8, 9, 88, 40.
356. 24:46Dr. Habermas, you mentioned earlier
357. 24:49about near-death experiences.
358. 24:51And I know what the Bible says is our definitive source.
359. 24:56And I'm always a little leery when I hear about NDEs
360. 25:02because we don't want to take as gospel
361. 25:06something outside the Bible.
362. 25:09But do you believe, you know, with medical technology,
363. 25:13I mean, there are just multiple recorded cases of people
364. 25:18that were clinically dead, came back,
365. 25:22reported things that seem to,
366. 25:25in a compelling way, argue for the afterlife.
367. 25:28What is the role of the NDEs in defending Christianity?
368. 25:33First of all, I would say there are several things that we take as evidence, but they're
369. 25:39outside the Bible.
370. 25:41For example, what we call intelligent design, what we call fine tuning arguments, the depth
371. 25:48of the oceans, the distance from the sun, so on, so on.
372. 25:54Fine tuning arguments, archeology, discovering things all the time that back up the New Testament,
373. 26:02for reliability of the New Testament.
374. 26:05NDEs, there are so many of them, Alex,
375. 26:08I've written three major essays.
376. 26:11Two of them are published, well, one is published,
377. 26:14and one is ready to come out with the press that calls them
378. 26:17self the number one's research press in the world
379. 26:20and they're secular.
380. 26:22We now have over four dozen,
381. 26:26there's over 500 evidential cases in these.
382. 26:30One doctor estimates that 20 million people have seen have had near death experiences.
383. 26:38It's not a once in a while experience. That's only 10 to 12 percent of the people who get close
384. 26:45to death, but that's millions now. And we have over four dozen cases now with people who as far as
385. 26:51we can tell, as far as the instruments show, they have no heartbeat and no brain waves, as far as we
386. 26:58know. And they report things that are so intricate that when you hear the reports, you have to make
387. 27:05some story up because otherwise you're going to be pushed to a belief in an afterlife. And if you are
388. 27:11an atheist and you don't believe there's an afterlife, it's troubling. In fact, I'll tell you this
389. 27:17out. It's in a recent survey. This was made known by an atheist, not by some pastor or something.
390. 27:24but an atheist reported that in a recent survey of atheists and agnostics, 32% of
391. 27:32them said that they believed in an afterlife or heaven. 32% 1 in 3 atheists
392. 27:40and agnostic. I want to know where that's coming from when it is opposed to their
393. 27:45worldview. So it's a big thing just like intelligence
394. 27:49signed these are all pointers to the truth but the problem with the indies they
395. 27:54don't say anything about Jesus, they don't say anything about the resurrection, they don't
396. 27:58say they just say there's life after death.
397. 28:01And the soul survives physical death.
398. 28:06Yeah.
399. 28:07And but here's what I think the difference is this, NDEs argue so tightly for an afterlife,
400. 28:15I don't know how anybody can refute them.
401. 28:18But it doesn't say you live forever.
402. 28:21It just says you live after death.
403. 28:23We have to go to the resurrection for something like a believer's lift forever because Jesus
404. 28:30made that claim and God doesn't raise a hair tick from the dead.
405. 28:34Why would God raise him?
406. 28:35The only founder of a rural religion is believed by his own followers to be raised from the dead
407. 28:40in a new body forever.
408. 28:42And he said, we'd have that body.
409. 28:46That's what we've been talking about.
410. 28:48That's the evidence that gets us to eternity.
411. 28:51He's just say, yeah, it's out there.
412. 28:53But that's enough to shake up, I think,
413. 28:55if I were an eighth, you said it would shake me up.
414. 28:59We're gonna take some calls.
415. 29:00We're gonna start in Georgia, Michael from Georgia.
416. 29:04Thanks for holding.
417. 29:05Welcome to the American Family Radio Network
418. 29:08and our guest, Gary Habermas.
419. 29:11Hey, how you doing?
420. 29:13Briefly, during Easter,
421. 29:18and out of wedding, I was out of wedding too.
422. 29:22but the two verses I wanna bring out,
423. 29:26Acts 2, 24, whom the Father God raised up,
424. 29:30have it loose him from the pains of death,
425. 29:33because it is not possible that the Lord Jesus
426. 29:36should be holding over it.
427. 29:38Where they get that from is because 50 statements
428. 29:43in the book of John, the Father sent Jesus.
429. 29:45So the sin of Adam would end him,
430. 29:47and then he never broke the law he never sin.
431. 29:50So it wasn't possible for him to stay dead
432. 29:54because he had never broke the law like the humans
433. 29:56or the rest of us.
434. 29:59And the other statement I want to bring out was
435. 30:05Peter and Paul, Paul and 13,
436. 30:09chapter 13 of Acts, and Peter right here
437. 30:12full of the Holy Spirit said,
438. 30:16in 25 verse 25 was the Father's swear,
439. 30:22But it's the Lord Jesus talking in person and he said that his face was always obedient
440. 30:29before his father and that he wouldn't see corruption which is when maggots eat your body.
441. 30:35Hey Michael thanks we're coming up on a break let me give Dr. Habermas a chance to respond.
442. 30:41So Jesus' sinlessness he was thoroughly righteous no sin in Jesus is that part of why he would
443. 30:50raise from the dead Dr. Habermas?
444. 30:53So he says a lot of things about that.
445. 30:57Other people say a lot of things about that.
446. 30:59The point to me is if you're going to claim to be the Son of God, and he did.
447. 31:06If you're going to claim to be the Son of Man, and he did.
448. 31:09If you claim to forgive sins, and you're blamed with blasphemy and Mark chapter 2, all
449. 31:15these things over and over again.
450. 31:18God doesn't raise somebody from the dead who, A, is a false prophet for saying, I'm the
451. 31:22son of God and who steals his glory. Remember, book of Isaiah, I won't share my glory with
452. 31:27another. Secondly, he said, I'm the only way into the kingdom. The kingdom of God was Jesus's
453. 31:33major preaching point. It was his center point. Everybody, everybody allows that. Jesus said,
454. 31:39you come to the kingdom through me. We don't meet Peter at the gate. We have to come through Jesus.
455. 31:44And those two things, I'm the son of God. And what you do with me determines where you spend
456. 31:49eternity. Those are high class blasts for me if they're not true. And including the
457. 31:56symbolises, if these things are not true then God raised their hair tear for the dead,
458. 31:59I don't think very many people think God raises hair texture of the dead. Indeed,
459. 32:04indeed. I see Nate from Minnesota holding, if you have a question folks, we've got a
460. 32:11brief break, the number is triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty, eight, forty,
461. 32:16Triple 8, 5, 8, 9, 88, 40.
462. 32:19More with our friend and our guest tonight, Dr. Gary Habermas.
463. 32:23Christ is risen.
464. 32:25And Gary, your website is just your name, Gary Habermas.com, right?
465. 32:31Correct.
466. 32:33Correct.
467. 32:34Well, stay tuned, folks.
468. 32:35We're going to talk more about the resurrection.
469. 32:37Jesus, apologetics.
470. 32:39And I always say this, Jesus is as close by as a prayer.
471. 32:43If you know about Jesus but you don't personally know Jesus, by all means make this the day that
472. 32:49you put your trust in the Lord. Jesus loves you. Whatever you've done, he'll forgive. Whatever has
473. 32:56been done to you, he can heal. Jesus is life and abundant life. Stay tuned, we're back after this.
474. 33:18but they're all backed by scriptural themes.
475. 33:21You'll also find resources to help you grow closer to God,
476. 33:24along with documentaries like Culture Warrior,
477. 33:27the story of Don Wildman and the founding of AFA.
478. 33:30There's a lot of free content,
479. 33:32but if you become a great commission partner,
480. 33:34you'll unlock much more.
481. 33:35Check it out today at stream.afa.net.
482. 33:39Is our theology of money upside down?
483. 33:42Our vision is that all Christians would see God as their ultimate treasure.
484. 33:47You know, it's a game changer of an idea,
485. 33:50and we start with this idea that God owns everything,
486. 33:54and we are his household managers of what he has entrusted to us,
487. 33:58so we own nothing but we have stewardship responsibilities,
488. 34:02faith and finance with Rob West weekdays at 9 a.m. Central
489. 34:06or on the AFR app.
490. 34:13The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrets
491. 34:17are available at AFR.net.
492. 34:19Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
493. 34:23Okay folks, if you've ever wanted to raise your hand during a sermon, now's your chance.
494. 34:30We've got Gary Habermas with us, great scholar, apologist.
495. 34:34The number is 85898840.
496. 34:40Nate from Minnesota, are you still there, Nate?
497. 34:44Yep, I'm here.
498. 34:45Hey, Nate.
499. 34:46Thanks for holding.
500. 34:47Welcome to our conversation with Dr. Habermas.
501. 34:50Hi. First of all, thank you for your ministry. And my question is, how do I talk about the
502. 34:57historical accuracy of the creeds that are in the Bible with my Mormon friend? Because before
503. 35:03they've told me that we get our theology from creeds that were written after the Bible. And
504. 35:11I've heard about it before, the creeds that are in the Bible, and you were just talking
505. 35:14about that. So how would I talk to them about how they were originally written and it wasn't
506. 35:20changed over time.
507. 35:24First of all, Nate, if they're going to talk about what Joseph Smith received from Moroni,
508. 35:32if that's the other holy books they use, there's a little problem because that materials hundreds
509. 35:39of years, the reports were not known.
510. 35:43They taught that themselves were not known until thousands, almost thousands of years,
511. 35:49almost 2000 after the New Testament.
512. 35:52So number one, there's a time problem with that.
513. 35:55But I don't think it's necessarily for Mormons,
514. 35:58it's for anybody, and it's to say this,
515. 36:01if you saw the risen Jesus, if I did it,
516. 36:04if Alex did, we would be just flapper-gasted,
517. 36:08we would wanna talk about it immediately,
518. 36:10and that's what they did in the early church.
519. 36:12And they memorized these little tiny one-liners.
520. 36:16Paul even says, this isn't my material,
521. 36:18I got it from somebody else.
522. 36:19So those are the creeds.
523. 36:21They're written down, but the key is,
524. 36:23someone says, well, it sounds like phone tag.
525. 36:25Nope, how do you answer the phone tag objection?
526. 36:28Because I already said it, but let me say it again.
527. 36:31Paul went to Jerusalem three years after his conversion.
528. 36:35This is mid 30s, and he spent 15 days with Peter
529. 36:40and James, the brother of Jesus.
530. 36:43Those three men turn out to be the most influential people
531. 36:46and church history.
532. 36:47By the way, John is in the next chapter two, Galatians 2.
533. 36:53Those four can't be touched for influence.
534. 36:56They're all there together.
535. 36:57And Paul said, I gave them the gospel I was preaching,
536. 37:00Edith of the resurrection.
537. 37:02And they added nothing to me.
538. 37:05And in Galatians 2 verse nine,
539. 37:08they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me
540. 37:11to take the gospel to the Gentiles.
541. 37:14So the point is we have the reports they wrote.
542. 37:19They were standardized and remembered lines,
543. 37:26little verses like the ones we quote, Romans 10, 9,
544. 37:30John 3, 16, those are little verses we quote.
545. 37:33But Romans 10, 9 is a creed.
546. 37:35We memorize them.
547. 37:36You go, how to keep that from being hearsay?
548. 37:39Because, let me say it again,
549. 37:41Peter went to Jerusalem.
550. 37:43He talked to James, I'm sorry, Paul went to Jerusalem to talk to Peter and James spent 15 days and is one
551. 37:52atheist who testament scholar says Paul all of Paul's creeds in his epistles are many
552. 37:59He says Paul may have gotten every one of them confirmed by Peter and James and then he wrote him in his epistles
553. 38:06That is what we call eyewitness testimony
554. 38:09Dr. Hevermas, when was Galatians written like about 49 or 50 AD?
555. 38:18Some scholars do put Galatians as early as 48 or 49, but that's a minority view.
556. 38:26Usually Galatians is dated.
557. 38:28You have two major views.
558. 38:30I don't want to get into it too much, but there's two major views on the data Galatians.
559. 38:34You got early 50s and you got late 50s, but the 50s are the latest that could have been
560. 38:40written. Sure. And first thessalonians is probably the earliest book. It's also accepted
561. 38:48by critics. It's one of the other books that they will give you. It's 50 AD. So our earliest
562. 38:54text is at the most 20 years after Jesus Christophic Christian resurrection. 20 years later,
563. 39:02first that's all he's written.
564. 39:05The reason I asked that for those that may be trying to share the gospel with Mormons,
565. 39:09Okay, we know Joseph Smith started Mormonism April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York.
566. 39:17Okay, Galatians, even the late date, was the late 50s.
567. 39:22Well Galatians 1, 8, Paul says, if we or an angel from heaven preach a different gospel,
568. 39:30let them be accursed.
569. 39:31And I've found that you can get Mormons to agree that we do have a different message.
570. 39:38And the origin of the Mormon message was from an angel named Moroni, and Mormons will agree
571. 39:45that the King James Bible is a trustworthy Bible.
572. 39:49So when you turn to Galatians 1 and 8, well, just by the very definition of this King James
573. 39:55Bible that they will in general affirm, and it's a different message, a different origin,
574. 40:01a different date.
575. 40:02yet this Bible says, Paul says, let them be a cursed.
576. 40:08God bless for you, Nate, trying to witness to the Mormons.
577. 40:13Let's go to Mississippi, Scott, from Mississippi.
578. 40:16Thank you for holding.
579. 40:17Welcome to our conversation with Gary Habermas.
580. 40:22I wish I had a solid nickel for every time I heard
581. 40:26Dr. Habermas' name being recommended
582. 40:29somebody like Alex McFarland or Jeff, Pastor Jeff Freeve or Frank Turic or any of these
583. 40:36guys who really don't settle for anything less than the whole truth of the word of God
584. 40:43and the truth of God.
585. 40:46It's amazing that we will settle for less than the truth when it appeases us, when it
586. 40:55We only have something we have an appetite for when it doesn't make us uncomfortable or require something in obedience
587. 41:04Just I just can't help but thank God for
588. 41:11for of theologians and
589. 41:16True students of the word like I gotta say
590. 41:20Scott thanks for calling in hey guys like Frank Turic and me and I know Frank would concur
591. 41:26and Sean McDowell and all of Jim Wallace, we wish we wish we could be Gary Habermas when
592. 41:33it comes to apologetics and theology.
593. 41:38That's hilarious. That's hilarious, Alex. Here I'm sitting here way past retirement age.
594. 41:44I'm still teaching full time, but you got these young bucks out there like the guys you
595. 41:49just named. To me, you're all young bucks. And you remember, you told the group. I remember
596. 41:54when I talked to my wife dying earlier, you were at Liberty when that happened and you were writing
597. 42:01your master's thesis. I remember that. I think we're about where I am now and if I've been a blessing
598. 42:09at all to anybody, so be it, but you guys have so many good years ahead of you and communications
599. 42:16are changing so that you and Frank do interviews that go out hundreds of times counting rebroadcasts.
600. 42:23We have ways to present the gospel today that are just unbelievable and I'm so thankful for you guys
601. 42:29And I said to you during the break Alex you probably don't want me to say this
602. 42:33But whenever I'm with you the two things I always hear from you is you give God the glory for everything
603. 42:39And number two you always find ways to get the gospel in conversations
604. 42:44You're better than I am at it for sure and that when you guys go and do these things
605. 42:49that just further in the kingdom.
606. 42:52I thank the Lord for you folks.
607. 42:54To God be the glory, to God.
608. 42:56Well, hey, I wanna thank you and I know I speak
609. 42:58for countless thousands of students.
610. 43:01Thank you, Gary Habermas, for pouring your life
611. 43:05into students like me.
612. 43:07We are the beneficiaries and to the best of our ability,
613. 43:10we're trying to do the same.
614. 43:12And, you know, folks, why would you not wanna be a Christian?
615. 43:16Oh my word, the incredible adventure, the glorious, joyous adventure that is following the Lord
616. 43:24Jesus.
617. 43:26My goodness, how good the Lord is to us all.
618. 43:29Let's go to Kentucky.
619. 43:31Brandon in Kentucky.
620. 43:32Hey, Brandon, are you there?
621. 43:34Thanks for holding.
622. 43:35Yes, sir.
623. 43:36I am here.
624. 43:37I have a pleasure to talk to you guys.
625. 43:40Pleasure to listen to.
626. 43:42I have just a fun food for thought type question, very inconsequential compared to the question
627. 43:49that's been asked.
628. 43:50But I've always wondered one of those golden nuggets in the scriptures that I like to call
629. 43:56it.
630. 43:57But you know, Jesus is a tunic that the Roman guards has locked for.
631. 44:02I've read it many times.
632. 44:04It always intrigued me.
633. 44:05You know, it says it was woven in one piece without seeing.
634. 44:09I've often thought about that and I know Jesus there was Jesus, you know, he had no fault.
635. 44:15He had no he was sinless.
636. 44:17I was thinking about his garments there it was, you know, if you pull on my shirt right
637. 44:22now, where's it going to tear?
638. 44:24It's going to tear at the scene.
639. 44:25The same as the sign of weakness.
640. 44:27Jesus had no weaknesses.
641. 44:29So it was almost like his even his garments were exemplary of who he was.
642. 44:35And I did a study on it one time, those type of garments,
643. 44:39what I read was they were actually for royalty.
644. 44:45And there I thought to myself,
645. 44:47there he was a son of a carpenter,
646. 44:50did not come from anywhere rich.
647. 44:53And I've often wondered, and it's again,
648. 44:54food for thought, where did he get that garment?
649. 44:57Has either one of you thought about
650. 45:00where did Jesus get that garment?
651. 45:05No, I don't have any comments about it.
652. 45:08I know that when the text says that,
653. 45:12there's a reason it says that, apparently.
654. 45:14Now I have not done a study on that,
655. 45:16but it, the text has singled that comment out,
656. 45:19and then the soldiers, you know, gambled for it.
657. 45:23It must have been something very special,
658. 45:25but I agree with you that there's something there that says
659. 45:28that it's being of one piece was out of the ordinary.
660. 45:32So somebody, I don't know what to think beyond that,
661. 45:35but it was a very precious piece of material.
662. 45:38Indeed.
663. 45:40Thank you for that.
664. 45:42We've got a man with a prayer request.
665. 45:45And I think his name is Richard.
666. 45:48Richard, are you there, Richard from Texas?
667. 45:53Hello, Richard.
668. 45:55OK.
669. 45:57How about Patty from Iowa?
670. 46:00Patty, are you there?
671. 46:01Yes, I'm here.
672. 46:03Thank you for holding the welcome.
673. 46:04I said you were for Alex.
674. 46:06OK.
675. 46:08My question, I have a brother who's been he and his wife in Jehovah's Witnesses for years,
676. 46:14and I have a stack of books giving answers about, you know, they don't believe Jesus rose bodily
677. 46:22that that would have taken the ransom sacrifice back.
678. 46:26They think the Lord just dissolved his body and gases or put it in a museum and have it,
679. 46:32and that he rose as a spirit creature and be actually dark angel Michael.
680. 46:38But anyway, there's a verse in 1 Corinthians 15, verse 45 that I've never found answer to
681. 46:46you in any of the books I have where it says the first man Adam was made a living soul,
682. 46:52the last Adam was made a quickening or life-giving spirit.
683. 46:58I don't know what to say to them about that verse.
684. 47:01I know it doesn't mean he didn't rise bodily, but I think I might have an idea, but I haven't
685. 47:07found a good commentary about it.
686. 47:13You know what?
687. 47:14It's that very chapter, 1 Corinthians 15,
688. 47:18that convinces New Testament scholars today,
689. 47:21even people on the other side from conservative Christians
690. 47:27that Paul taught the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
691. 47:311 Corinthians 15 is probably the most cited passage.
692. 47:34But let me give you a couple others.
693. 47:36In Philippians chapter three, Paul ends the chapter by saying our vile bodies will be raised to be like Jesus' glorious body.
694. 47:50Now, this is Greek, but in Greek, Numa is Spirit and Soma is body.
695. 47:58It had been very, very easy for Paul to say in Philippians 2,
696. 48:03Jesus will change our vile body to be like His glorious Numa Spirit.
697. 48:09But He doesn't.
698. 48:10He says that Jesus will change our vile body to be like unto His glorious body.
699. 48:16Romans 811 is another one by Paul, accepted by critics, both passages accepted by critical scholars.
700. 48:24And in Romans 811, he's going to give life to our mortal bodies.
701. 48:29Paul says that. So if you put Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15, Philippians chapter 2,
702. 48:35there are some very serious scholars. Michael Kona is another one. Tom Wright
703. 48:42wrote hundreds of pages on this subject.
704. 48:45uh...
705. 48:48gundry is another one of his book and so much
706. 48:52is a
707. 48:53all strong defenses of the new testament view of resurrection of the body
708. 48:58not resurrection of the new month or spirit
709. 49:02uh... we're out of time this has been fantastic i want to thank everybody for
710. 49:05listening i want to thank jeff mackendage bobby rosa and the crew at american
711. 49:10family radio for engineering the program
712. 49:12But I want to thank Dr. Gary Habermas, again,
713. 49:14his website, garyhabermas.com.
714. 49:17Hey, thanks for your time, and I know I speak for countless
715. 49:21people.
716. 49:21Thank you for what you do for the defense of the gospel.
717. 49:26As you say, Alec, to God be the glory.
718. 49:29I look forward to when you and I can visit again.
719. 49:31Folks, keep your radio tuned to American Family Radio.
720. 49:34Tell somebody about this great programming.
721. 49:36Most of all, tell everybody about Jesus.
722. 49:40The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast
723. 49:43may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.