Author, speaker, J. Warner Wallace joins guest host, Dr. Alex McFarland, to discuss his upcoming graphic novel, “Case Files Vol. 1: Murder and Meaning”

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force. Simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
2. 0:06This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
3. 0:10It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
4. 0:14Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
5. 0:17And the philosophies of this world.
6. 0:19God has called you and me to be his ambassador.
7. 0:23Even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment.
8. 0:27And now, the Hamilton Corner.
9. 0:30Well, good evening America, Alex McFarland here.
10. 0:35You know, on the American Family Radio Network,
11. 0:37I have the privilege of being on a lot of programs.
12. 0:40We do a show called Exploring the Word,
13. 0:42every day three to four central, four to five eastern,
14. 0:46and in the time zone of your choice.
15. 0:48And then, like right now, I get to sit in on a lot of hours
16. 0:52of broadcasting, it's a great honor,
17. 0:54and all the shows are very special,
18. 0:55but tonight is, we just believe it's going to be
19. 0:58it's going to be a little something extra. And I'll cue this up and then I want you to meet a very
20. 1:03special colleague and friend. If you've ever wondered, is God real? Can I be sure that the Bible is
21. 1:12trustworthy? And what about Jesus? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Is he the Son of God,
22. 1:20as Christians for centuries have said? If you've ever wrestled with hard questions about faith,
23. 1:26Tonight is your night that you've tuned in because you'll see why I say that in a moment.
24. 1:31But let me say this, if Christianity were true, would you believe it? Now think about this.
25. 1:38If Jesus really existed and really rose from the dead after having paid the sin debt of humanity on
26. 1:45the cross, and if God could be personally known through Jesus, would you want that?
27. 1:52Well, if you've ever wrestled with these questions, then what a privilege that
28. 1:56there's an individual that has emerged on the scene 20 years ago named Jay Warner
29. 2:03Wallace, Jim Wallace. He was a Los Angeles cold case homicide detective. He as a
30. 2:09Christian apologist and scholar, he's written a number of books, maybe the
31. 2:14most well-known of which is called Cold Case Christianity. And it's about how he
32. 2:19as a detective, cracking cases and solving crime. He applied those critical
33. 2:27skills of analysis to the question of Jesus and will get his take from one of
34. 2:34America's renowned detectives on how rational it is to accept who Jesus is
35. 2:41presented as in the New Testament. I'm going to be with Jim Wallace at the Cove
36. 2:45this summer the website is the Cove.org T-H-E-C-O-V-E-V
37. 2:50Cove.org. He and I will be doing a five-day session on
38. 2:55apologetics and defending the Christian faith. We would love for you to be there.
39. 2:59Go to the Cove.org and you can find out how you can be with us in
40. 3:04Asheville, North Carolina. Come summertime. But without further ado, Jim Wallace, Jay
41. 3:10Warner Wallace. Welcome.
42. 3:12Hey, thanks so much for having me, Alex.
43. 3:14Looking forward to this conversation tonight.
44. 3:16Well, myself included.
45. 3:19And later on, we will take questions if you've ever wanted to raise your hand during a sermon,
46. 3:23folks.
47. 3:24Tonight's your chance.
48. 3:25Jim Wallace and I will take questions later in the show.
49. 3:28But hey, I just want to say thank you because God is using you.
50. 3:35I've known you a while.
51. 3:36You're a very humble person and you're not in this for the accolades.
52. 3:41doing this because like myself, you believe that this is real and true. But I just want
53. 3:47to say thank you for publishing some of the best apologetics work of our lifetime. You've
54. 3:55traveled just nonstop and touched countless lives, my own included. And so for being the
55. 4:04voice that you are jay wonder why was thank you
56. 4:08well you know i i'm kind of feel like it's hard to
57. 4:11imagine
58. 4:12and i'm probably a good example of how anyone just basically anyone who comes
59. 4:18from whatever background you're coming from
60. 4:20if you're listening to us tonight is no they got will use
61. 4:24uh... you're you're interesting background you might think what i'm yet i don't have
62. 4:27a background in the book of scholarship or
63. 4:30i'm not a pastor or i'd not somebody who's
64. 4:32You know, an evangelist.
65. 4:34I just have this skill set over here, this nichy little skill set.
66. 4:38Well, that was me.
67. 4:39And I didn't think, you know,
68. 4:41my first started examining scripture in my 30s.
69. 4:44I never imagined that I would eventually tell others
70. 4:47about my journey.
71. 4:49I just wanted to know, is Christianity true?
72. 4:51Could I test it in some way?
73. 4:53The way you would work any case,
74. 4:55whether it's two hours ago, two years ago,
75. 4:57or two decades ago, or two millennia ago.
76. 5:00I just wanted to know, is it true?
77. 5:02and how would we test that and where the principles of evidence we could apply to
78. 5:06this
79. 5:07and so i'd it for me it was not that i was
80. 5:10uh... really
81. 5:11interested in debunking all we have a mutual friend lee strobele who
82. 5:15has written a number of books and
83. 5:17when his wife became a christian first you know she she lastly
84. 5:20challenged him in the sense that he wanted to kind of disprove it you want to
85. 5:23show her that she was wrong for being a christian
86. 5:26and that was not my situations using our both not christians when we first walked
87. 5:30into that
88. 5:30church
89. 5:31and i just thought well if it's something that's who you want to do because it
90. 5:34she thought it would help
91. 5:35uh... our kids or
92. 5:37something you know just utilitarian i was more than willing to sit through as
93. 5:40many years as she wanted to do that as an atheist because my dad
94. 5:44has that
95. 5:45to very few today he's not a christian
96. 5:48he's a big he feels like a bit works for you guys who are christians
97. 5:52have added it's a useful delusion
98. 5:54great
99. 5:55uh... and he'll come to church
100. 5:57he'll support you as a believer
101. 5:59he doesn't believe it's true
102. 6:01Well, that was kind of the pattern I watched growing up, and I thought, yeah, I can do
103. 6:06that too.
104. 6:07So I wasn't really trying to prove it wrong.
105. 6:10I just got into it, and I remember hearing the pastor, the first thing that stuck in my
106. 6:14mind was he said that Jesus was smart.
107. 6:17And that claim was enough for me to say, well, is he smart?
108. 6:22I bought a Bible to find out.
109. 6:24And as I kind of read up through the Bible, I began to kind of test it.
110. 6:27Because honestly, if you've ever read the Gospels
111. 6:31and taken them seriously, you'll find that there are differences
112. 6:35in the way episodes are described.
113. 6:37Differences in the way parables are even described.
114. 6:41Statements of Jesus are described.
115. 6:43The miracles of Jesus.
116. 6:45You'll see slight differences.
117. 6:47And I think a lot of people who are skeptical look
118. 6:48at those differences and they think, yeah, well, there you go.
119. 6:51You can't trust it because they don't word
120. 6:53for word and say the same thing.
121. 6:54But if you've ever investigated a case
122. 6:55in which you're talking to eyewitnesses, you will know that the first thing you're going
123. 6:59to realize is that witnesses never agree.
124. 7:02And I mean, if attorneys love it, because they love to exploit that in front of a jury,
125. 7:07but that was the thing that prompted me to test these gospel accounts as eyewitness accounts.
126. 7:13You know, when I became a Christian myself, Jim, I was in the middle of an English degree
127. 7:17at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro and I was steeped in literature.
128. 7:21Now I remember reading where Jesus said to Peter,
129. 7:26get the behind me Satan.
130. 7:29And I was like, wow, man, that's harsh talk for Peter.
131. 7:34And then when Jesus raised Lazarus,
132. 7:37they said he's been in the grave three days,
133. 7:40Lazarus is dead, surely by now his body stinks.
134. 7:44And here's my point.
135. 7:46I was like, wow, these are kind of like embarrassing,
136. 7:49awkward details.
137. 7:51And if this were just like a glossed over sanitized myth,
138. 7:56it wouldn't be so earthy.
139. 7:58And I remember reading the Gospels
140. 8:00and the philosophical side of me,
141. 8:03I love John chapter one, you know,
142. 8:05in the beginning was the word.
143. 8:07But, you know, Matthew, Mark, and Luke,
144. 8:10there are some very earthy details.
145. 8:13And I remember thinking,
146. 8:15and this was the thought that went through my mind.
147. 8:17And I, Jim, at that point in my life,
148. 8:19I knew nothing about nothing.
149. 8:20was just coming, kind of kicking the tires. But I thought, this has the ring of truth. Would
150. 8:27you agree if you read the Gospels? They just sort of, they ring true, don't they?
151. 8:31Well, let's put it this way. I think if you, let's just do a little thought experiment
152. 8:37for a second. If the Gospels contain the story of the first century Jewish rabbi known as
153. 8:43Jesus and it just contains a collection of his sermons, his interactions with his disciples,
154. 8:51but there is not a single miraculous element anywhere on the pages.
155. 8:55Let's imagine that as a thought experiment.
156. 8:57Same gospels, same teaching, but no miracles at all.
157. 9:02No raising anyone from the dead, no Lazarus, no walking on water, no feeding 5,000, no virgin
158. 9:07birth and no resurrection.
159. 9:10If that was the story of Jesus, I don't think there would be a single scholar who would doubt
160. 9:14the historicity of Jesus, given the manuscript evidence.
161. 9:17There is clearly not an ancient, so well documented, as Jesus of Nazareth.
162. 9:24All the way we've preserved the text, the way it's been brought down to us in history,
163. 9:29no one's going to doubt a non-braculous version of Jesus.
164. 9:33But you insert one miracle.
165. 9:35And now suddenly people are saying, well, no, no, this has got to be some distortion,
166. 9:38It's got to be a lie, it's got to be a lay addition, it's got to...
167. 9:41What's going on here is that it's clearly not about the manuscript evidence or the strength
168. 9:47of the manuscript evidence.
169. 9:48It's about a bias, a commitment to naturalism that refuses to ever entertain the idea of anything
170. 9:56like I would have said myself.
171. 9:58I would have said, look, if you're going to include in what you're calling history, if
172. 10:02you're going to include a miracle account, well, you've just changed genres.
173. 10:07You're no longer doing history, you're doing mythology.
174. 10:10So history, from my perspective as a secularist, coming up, I went to my degree in the arts at
175. 10:16UCLA.
176. 10:17I mean, for me, this has got to be, this is clearly fiction because of the miraculous.
177. 10:25So there's the bias.
178. 10:26The bias is not that we think that the manuscript evidence is faulty.
179. 10:30The bias is that we cannot accept the idea that anything supernatural could be historical.
180. 10:37And I think for us, what we have to do is ask ourselves a question first.
181. 10:41Do you think that you can explain the universe the way it is with just natural causes?
182. 10:47In other words, I was somebody who adopted a view of the universe which we call Big Bang
183. 10:52Cosmology.
184. 10:53It's still the standard cosmological model amongst astrophysicists, the idea that everything
185. 10:58in the universe, including space, time, and matter, everything in the universe came into
186. 11:03existence from nothing.
187. 11:04Well, if that's the case, that law of causality means that, hey, whatever began it, it cannot
188. 11:09be spatial, temporal, or material, because that's what it's creating.
189. 11:13So you already believe there's some kind of force that's sufficient enough to create
190. 11:19everything in the universe from you're already outside of naturalism.
191. 11:24You already believe in some cause that is extra natural.
192. 11:28It's not governed by space, time, matter, physics, and chemistry, because it is the cause of
193. 11:32of all of those attributes of the universe.
194. 11:35So I thought to myself, okay, so if there's a being
195. 11:40that is outside of space, time, and matter,
196. 11:42that is powerful enough to cause the universe
197. 11:44to come into existence, well, the biggest miracle
198. 11:46is not on the pages of the New Testament,
199. 11:48those are all small potato miracles.
200. 11:49The biggest miracle is Genesis one.
201. 11:52And if there's a being that can do Genesis one,
202. 11:55well, then he can surely walk on water.
203. 11:58So I just think it opened the door for me to hold more
204. 12:01an open hand, the supernatural claims of the New Testament. If I was really to honestly
205. 12:07examine my views of the universe as an atheist, I kind of already had a foot in that door.
206. 12:14So why wouldn't I walk all the way through?
207. 12:17What do you think the skeptic has such an aversion to the idea that God intervenes in
208. 12:25this world?
209. 12:27Well, I think a couple of things. I think that to be honest, we all love our autonomy
210. 12:33and we love our power and we love. We are driven by self-interest typically and if it
211. 12:39could be so, that we were the gods of the universe. We would certainly take that position
212. 12:44and we want that kind of control. And the first thing, and this is something that I've
213. 12:48really been studying a lot lately because I was just finished a book called The Truth
214. 12:52with and true crime where we have one chapter on this one feature of human experience that
215. 12:57will cause you to flourish more than any other feature of human experience, but you've got
216. 13:03to adopt it fully.
217. 13:05And all the studies show us this.
218. 13:06All the secular studies confirm this.
219. 13:08And it's an ancient principle.
220. 13:10And here's what it is.
221. 13:11It's humility.
222. 13:14Humility is the key that unlocks the human experience.
223. 13:17Everything in terms of your relationships, your income, your educational level, the depth
224. 13:21of your friendships, your mental health, your longevity, your physical health is tied to this
225. 13:27one attribute, humility.
226. 13:30But this is the thing that really no worldview promotes nearly as well as Christianity.
227. 13:37And what keeps us from adopting Christianity is that we aren't, we don't possess humility.
228. 13:43We are self-absorbed and we want complete control.
229. 13:47We cannot bend our knee and I think about it.
230. 13:49any worldview in which you have to do something to earn the highest reward available, that
231. 13:55just promotes pride, the opposite of humility.
232. 13:58So if you're a secular atheist, you believe you're in a world that if I work hard, I should get
233. 14:02a result.
234. 14:03If I do this, then that.
235. 14:05It's a doing worldview.
236. 14:07It's a meritocracy.
237. 14:08We do things and we should get as a result.
238. 14:11If somebody else gets promoted before us and they don't think they deserved it, they'll often
239. 14:15say, well, I did more than he did. Why? Because we live in a world that is a doing world view.
240. 14:21And every other theistic worldview is also a doing worldview, except for one.
241. 14:27Except for Christianity. That's the one that will promote humility.
242. 14:31The voice you're hearing is Jay Warner Wallace, author of Colcase Christianity and so much more.
243. 14:35Alex McFarland here. This is the American Family Radio Network. We're going to continue talking
244. 14:40about apologetics and the rationality of the Christian faith.
245. 14:44Plus, your phone calls and questions.
246. 14:46If you've got a question about how to explain or defend your Christian faith, call us.
247. 14:53We've got a brief break.
248. 14:54We're going to come back more with J. One of Wallace.
249. 14:57Stay tuned.
250. 14:59As Christians, how can we even begin to impact others when we live in a culture where truth
251. 15:04is relative?
252. 15:05It all starts with God's Word.
253. 15:07Join us for Activate Summit 2025 at Cadence Bank Conference Center in Tupelo, Mississippi,
254. 15:13June 12th through the 14th, 2025.
255. 15:16The theme is Biblical Bedrock, building on the authority of Scripture, and it's designed
256. 15:20to help you acknowledge the Bible's authority and submit to the clear teaching of Scripture.
257. 15:25Here from Abraham Hamilton III,
258. 15:27The Lord has planted us here so that we make our space better.
259. 15:30Ed Vittagliano,
260. 15:31We use those kinds of terms.
261. 15:33Be the hands and feet of Jesus.
262. 15:35What would Jesus do if He were here?
263. 15:37Alex McFarland.
264. 15:38God created because it was His will.
265. 15:41The main sessions are for ages 13 and up, while Activate Kids is a separate track for
266. 15:45ages 6 through 12.
267. 15:47Register for Activate Summit 2025 by visiting activate.afa.net.
268. 15:53Activate Summit 2025.
269. 15:55Activate.AFA.net
270. 15:58Slash Summit.
271. 15:59Shiting Light Into the Darkness,
272. 16:05this is the Hamilton Corner,
273. 16:07on American Family Radio.
274. 16:09Welcome back to the program,
275. 16:12Alex McFarland here,
276. 16:14you know, in the New Testament,
277. 16:152 Peter 1, 16 through 21.
278. 16:17I love it, how the Apostle Peter says,
279. 16:20regarding the gospel that Jesus died in Rose again,
280. 16:24He said, we have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made no Nundi the power in the
281. 16:29coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
282. 16:31In other words, this is not myth or legend.
283. 16:34Jesus died and rose again in time space history and by having a relationship with Christ, putting
284. 16:41your faith in Him, you can be saved, your sins forgiven.
285. 16:45By the way, if you want to know, you think, you know, I know about Jesus, but how do I really
286. 16:51have a relationship with Christ. On my website, which is alexmcfarland.com,
287. 16:56there's a tab that says, what does God say about my relationship with him?
288. 17:01And it explains the gospel and look, no strings attached,
289. 17:05we don't want your money, just your attention. And if you want to make sure
290. 17:09that you have Christ in your life, this is real.
291. 17:12I would encourage you to read J. Warren Wallace's books.
292. 17:16But right now tonight you're saying, you know, I need to get this straight.
293. 17:20I really want to know that I have a relationship with the Lord.
294. 17:24You can do that.
295. 17:25We often say it.
296. 17:26Jesus is as close by as a prayer.
297. 17:29And Jim Wallace, myself, Frank Turic, Josh, Sean McDowell, Lee Strobel, Mark Middleberg, Gary
298. 17:36Habermas.
299. 17:37So many of our colleagues, I don't know if you know all those names folks.
300. 17:40Here's my point.
301. 17:41Some of the best and the brightest have thoroughly looked at the evidence like Jay Warner Wallace
302. 17:47and said, wow, this is real.
303. 17:50this is real and in putting your faith in Christ you have every reasonable, rational,
304. 17:57incentive to do this. And so if you haven't done that we encourage you to do so. We are
305. 18:02talking with J. Warner Wallace and I want to come back to what we were talking about before
306. 18:07the break but you've got a book coming out and I'm excited about it. Graphic novels, Jim
307. 18:14You know, we do seven summer camps with 1200 teenagers, and we give away a new testament
308. 18:20that's in the form of a graphic novel.
309. 18:23People love this, and especially young people, but you and your son are doing a graphic novel,
310. 18:29aren't you?
311. 18:30Yeah, we kind of thought about this for some time.
312. 18:32You know, when we first started writing books, it was really about is Christianity true.
313. 18:38And I think that culture has shifted enough that the question, at least, maybe we were in a
314. 18:43cultural shift again right now. So I think we're going to see where we are in four or five years.
315. 18:47But over the last, I would say five years, it felt like the question was no longer is Christianity
316. 18:53true. It's like, what is true anyway? I mean, people are so confused about the nature of truth.
317. 18:57The real question, I think, for a lot of people, especially young people, was is Christianity good?
318. 19:02And so what I've tried to do is to shift in that direction. We wrote a person of interest,
319. 19:06because that's really a book that describes the positive impact of Jesus and his followers on
320. 19:11and culture. And then Truth and True Crime is really a book that tries to give you 15 rules
321. 19:16for life that if you didn't know better, you'd think we're coming out of secular studies,
322. 19:20but they're actually coming straight out of Scripture. But this effort is a book called Case Files.
323. 19:25And what we're trying to do, we're going to do two of these with David C. Cook, the publisher.
324. 19:29We're not illustrating them. I've done all my own illustrations up to this point,
325. 19:34but we've got serious comic book illustrators that are doing the work on as we just wrote it.
326. 19:39And the idea here is that we're going to tell a story, a cop story, about a serial killer.
327. 19:44And all we're looking to do is to raise questions that the reader can think about,
328. 19:49like what is it that gives life value? Is it something we assign as a culture?
329. 19:54Are there some citizens in our culture that are less valuable than others?
330. 19:59Or maybe we would put less resources on solving their murder than we would on others?
331. 20:03And that often displays where our values are, right, when we...
332. 20:07So whose case gets worked is often a way to discover what's important to a culture.
333. 20:13But my point is we thought, what if we could write a graphic novel that instead of being overtly Christian,
334. 20:21you might not even know it's got a Christian source.
335. 20:25And we wanted to make sure that we didn't necessarily land the plane safely,
336. 20:30because life doesn't land safely a lot of times.
337. 20:32So could we communicate a Christian message that is rough around the edges?
338. 20:39Because life is sometimes rough around the edges.
339. 20:41But we'll cause people to think. It's the kind of book I hope that people would like to give away
340. 20:45to a non-believer to at least open up. And one of the things we do on our website
341. 20:50is we provide like a discussion guide afterwards. So if you did give this to a non-believer
342. 20:55and then you wanted to have a conversation with them like how would you do that?
343. 21:00You can find all that at coldcaseChristianity.com. It's in the top banner right now.
344. 21:04But the point is, we're trying to come at it. I think this is an apple you have to bite from each side.
345. 21:10And we spent a lot of years biting it from the hard facts, evidence, side. Here's why it is
346. 21:15evidentially true. Now what we're trying to do is to open people's eyes to the truth that it's
347. 21:20actually good for us. You did a book God's Crime Scene. Did you do the illustrations for that?
348. 21:27Yeah, I did the illustrations for all the books until this one. And people ask me,
349. 21:32are these illustrations? And I thought, that's to me, comic book artists are amazing
350. 21:38because they are so quick. I mean, it's the speed with which they can illustrate
351. 21:42that makes a graphic novel possible. If you're going to spend a year and a half
352. 21:47illustrating it, well, how many are you going to do? But this is a team of illustrators
353. 21:52that have worked on comic books of all different kinds.
354. 21:55And so we started preovers yesterday and we found it was the number one graphic novel
355. 22:01in mysteries right alongside all the Marvel comics that are right alongside with them.
356. 22:05And I thought, you know, there's probably a way for us to reach our friends.
357. 22:09It is so unorthodox. But it taps into the popularity of comics.
358. 22:15If you think about it, how many movies now are grounded?
359. 22:18It's like comic books have become kind of the, you know, the, the, the, the boards for the storyboards for movies.
360. 22:26So, so I think in some way this might be another way to reach your friends.
361. 22:30Sure. And hey, you know, if you go to Barnes and Noble, um, I have to confess I've been going to Barnes and Noble in every city that I am in because
362. 22:39by God's grace over the last two years suddenly, you know, after 20 years of writing books, my books are getting into Barnes and Noble like
363. 22:47properly and I give God the glory.
364. 22:50But there are aisles and aisles of graphic novels for all ages.
365. 22:55And one of the things we promote folks and we'll have him on this year, we always do,
366. 23:00is the truth for youth bibles.
367. 23:03That is the New Testament and the story of Jesus in a world class graphic novel style.
368. 23:09People read that, people of all ages.
369. 23:12I was going to tell you, the illustrations in the book God's Crime Scene, a cold case to
370. 23:17detective examines the evidence for a creator.
371. 23:21Those illustrations are phenomenal.
372. 23:23I did not know that you had the gift of cartooning.
373. 23:28Good job, my friend.
374. 23:30And you know, part of it was that that was my,
375. 23:32I have a weird background.
376. 23:33I came up through the arts.
377. 23:35I went, my dad was a cop in 1961.
378. 23:37I was born in his academy, but my background was in the arts.
379. 23:41I got a bachelor's degree in design
380. 23:42and a master's degree in architecture.
381. 23:44I was working in an architectural firm in Santa Monica when I shifted over and decided to join
382. 23:49my dad's occupation.
383. 23:51And so I thought for years, what am I going to do with these skills I have as an artist?
384. 23:56They're not going to get used.
385. 23:57I mean, I drew a lot of crime scenes.
386. 23:59I mean, my chief sent me out to every crime scene that needed to be drawn.
387. 24:04I made a lot of models from murder scenes for court before I ever had a coposic sketches
388. 24:10of a society.
389. 24:11You can pause it. That's a very, I think, a very unique skill set.
390. 24:16But I did all the architectural diagrams for placement of evidence, that kind of stuff.
391. 24:21But I think in the end, what I discovered was that if you can make something visual to a jury,
392. 24:26you will be much more persuasive to that jury, and you will get a much quicker verdict.
393. 24:32Good or bad? They have to see it.
394. 24:35And we're such visual creatures that I can make a case, and I can give you a list of the five evidences.
395. 24:40But if I can show this as a visual diagram, people go, oh, I get it. I'm ready to make a decision here.
396. 24:47And so we started using it in criminal trials. And that's where that guy pressed into service.
397. 24:53All of my cold cases that were on Dateline were all cases where I created all the visual elements
398. 25:00for that trial. I worked closely with the DA. And so he said, yeah, go for it.
399. 25:05And so we taught the DA how to use visual media in court.
400. 25:09And this is back in the day when there was, you know, I think I started this in 99.
401. 25:13I think PowerPoint was about a year old when we first started using PowerPoint.
402. 25:18And the more we did, the better we got at it. So my books are filled with the illustrations that I would typically use in front of a jury.
403. 25:24You know, we haven't scripted this or anything. I want to change gears a little bit.
404. 25:29And by the way, if you're just tuning in, we're talking with Jay Warner Wallace.
405. 25:32He and I will be at the Cove, the Billy Graham Training Center in Western North Carolina.
406. 25:38The end of July 1st of August and we'll be doing a seminar on apologetics.
407. 25:43And I would encourage you to sign up for that.
408. 25:46This is July 28th through August 1st.
409. 25:49He and I will be there in person.
410. 25:51And what we want to do is we want to impart to you apologetics and train you in not only
411. 25:59a deeper dive for your own personal enrichment with the Bible and Jesus, but defending and
412. 26:06sharing the Christian faith.
413. 26:07And I think apologetics is a great tool for evangelism here in the 21st century.
414. 26:13So the website is thecove.org, T-H-E-C-O-V-E-V, Cove.org.
415. 26:18If you've never been to the Billy Graham Training Center, it's just amazing.
416. 26:22The accommodations, the food, and I know this is going to sound really subjective, folks,
417. 26:27listen, you will truly feel the presence of God there. Billy and Ruth Graham walked over
418. 26:34those hillsides and you'll love a week at the Cove and Jim Wallace and I would love to be
419. 26:39with you. And so please check that out. But Jim, before the break, you were talking about
420. 26:44humility. And you know, the Greeks like Plato, they have a lot to say about virtue and they
421. 26:53would teach about courage. And let me say this that we can do apologetics. 1 Peter 3
422. 27:0215 be ready to give an answer. 1 Peter 2 15 says this is the will of God that by doing
423. 27:08well you will put to silence the arguments of foolish men. Now all that to throw this
424. 27:13to you. Don't you think we as Christians we have an obligation but even an opportunity
425. 27:20to show the genuineness of the gospel through our character, really.
426. 27:27Don't you think virtue and character and Christians living like Christians should live?
427. 27:34Don't you think that's a powerful witness of the reality of the gospel?
428. 27:37No, it absolutely is.
429. 27:39Now here's where I would say I'm always like in both ends rather than in either or.
430. 27:44And here's why in that way.
431. 27:45When I first became a Christian, I was 35, my parents divorced when I was 3, my dad remarried
432. 27:52when I was about 5.
433. 27:54The woman he remarried became a Mormon within about a year, and then he proceeded to have
434. 27:586 kids with his Mormon wife.
435. 28:00Now, my dad is not a believer, he's a very committed atheist.
436. 28:03But he did raise up 6 kids who went to Temple, I went to Ward rather every single week,
437. 28:09and they were very dedicated to their faith.
438. 28:13Now I think if you know any Mormons, you'll know this for sure.
439. 28:17You'll know that to be honest, they outperform us by leaps and bounds.
440. 28:22One of the things you'll typically say if you've got a Mormon neighbor is, yeah, those
441. 28:25are the nicest people I've ever met.
442. 28:28And they will do more for a lie than we will typically do for the truth.
443. 28:31And they are so committed to this, that if I was to say yes, your Christian character should
444. 28:36be what preaches the gospel, well then you just seated ground to people who are hold to
445. 28:40a heresy because they will always outperform us.
446. 28:43And I'll say this because of their Christian beliefs.
447. 28:46We have to do both.
448. 28:47We have to be as virtuous as those who claim to be Christians but actually aren't.
449. 28:51Yet, be able to make a case for why, where this is coming from.
450. 28:56Because that's the one thing that the Mormons can't do.
451. 28:59They cannot build, so what happened for me was I got interested in Christianity, I bought
452. 29:03a Bible.
453. 29:04My Mormon sister saw me buy that Bible.
454. 29:06She sent Mormons to my door.
455. 29:08So I had missionaries at my door for eight weeks going through the, I didn't know what was
456. 29:12I would just bought a Bible. So now I'm reading it so I got a quad because I
457. 29:17wasn't pretty devout Mormon family and that's the book of Mormon, the Old New
458. 29:20Testament, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Early Great Price, to all the
459. 29:25Mormon Scriptures. And I read through all of it before I finished the Old
460. 29:28Testament because I thought, wow, if my family has the truth, let me find out
461. 29:33if this is true. And here's what I discovered, employing the exact same
462. 29:37process that I employed to the Gospels in the New Testament. The four attributes of
463. 29:41reliable eyewitness testimony quickly, very quickly prove that the Book of Mormon was false.
464. 29:49So I always say that if you'll take this approach, an evidential approach, not only will it
465. 29:54lead you to truth, it will prevent you from error. So I always tell people I became a Christian
466. 29:59and about the same time I became a not Mormon because I knew from that process that that
467. 30:04wasn't true. And so I think that's why it's important for us to say yes, absolutely our
468. 30:10character matters
469. 30:12it to the exact same degree that the evidence matters and when i think is
470. 30:15interesting is
471. 30:16is that the church at large it seems largely disinterested in being able to
472. 30:20make a case for this
473. 30:22and then we happen to
474. 30:25go ahead and
475. 30:26well then what happens is you know you're then what happens is your your son meets
476. 30:29a nice mormon girl and you wonder why it is that that they didn't see the
477. 30:32see the difference
478. 30:34we we haven't spent any time
479. 30:36helping our kids go through an evidential approach to their faith
480. 30:40that could actually be the basis for this behavior
481. 30:43so that when someone asks,
482. 30:44where's that coming from?
483. 30:45You can say, well, yes, coming from this.
484. 30:47And let me tell you why I think this is true
485. 30:50because that's one thing they can't do.
486. 30:52And we ought to be able, by the way,
487. 30:53if you look through scripture and every gospel
488. 30:56you will see over and over and over again
489. 30:58that God puts people in places and does things
490. 31:01so they can be a witness for him.
491. 31:03That's called direct evidence.
492. 31:04Witnesses are direct evidence.
493. 31:06And then Jesus says, if you don't believe the witness
494. 31:08of John the Baptist or the people who have been
495. 31:10testifying about me
496. 31:12at least believe on the evidence of the miracles i've worked in front of you
497. 31:17that is called indirect evidence
498. 31:19so he's constantly using both direct and indirect evidence to make his case
499. 31:23and that's why i think we could do the same but why don't we we ought to get into
500. 31:27one thing that would prevent us from falling for a lie
501. 31:30yeah i mean it's is both and i mean it is the the message of the gospel the
502. 31:35confirming evidence
503. 31:36and then a change life and
504. 31:39Gary Habermas used to use the term
505. 31:41accumulative case apologetic.
506. 31:43That's right.
507. 31:44When you look at all, you know,
508. 31:45I love the argument.
509. 31:46There was a writer, Elton Trueblood,
510. 31:47many years ago.
511. 31:48He was actually a Quaker theologian.
512. 31:52He said, and this was his argument.
513. 31:54It's a good one.
514. 31:55It's not the only argument, but he said
515. 31:57millions of people have claimed to have
516. 31:59experienced the God of the Bible.
517. 32:02These include some of the best in
518. 32:03Brightish, Mass-Virtuous people ever.
519. 32:05If even one of them was correct, then God exists.
520. 32:08And the odds that they were all delusional or liars is very unlikely.
521. 32:13Therefore, based, and it was, I guess, an argument based on religious experience.
522. 32:18But you take all these things together plus an empty tomb.
523. 32:23Pretty compelling.
524. 32:24Hey folks, we're going to take questions.
525. 32:25Here's the number.
526. 32:26It's whole free nationwide.
527. 32:27Triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty.
528. 32:30Triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty.
529. 32:33Call us.
530. 32:34If you have a question for J. Warner Wallace or myself, we would love to hear from you when
531. 32:38the American Family Radio Network returns after this brief break.
532. 32:42Give us your Bible question and together we'll look at defending the faith.
533. 32:47God bless you.
534. 32:48Stay tuned.
535. 32:49We'll back after this.
536. 33:03A Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Commentaries are available at eFR.net.
537. 33:08Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
538. 33:13How cool is this?
539. 33:14Getting to talk with Jay Warner Wallace, one of the preeminent Christian apologists of our
540. 33:19time and he and I will be at the Cove July 28th through August 1st. Intensive Bible
541. 33:25training, apologetics, present, explain, defend. We would love to meet you there and
542. 33:31the website is thecove.org, T-H-E-C-A-V-E, thecove.org. Just Google our name in the
543. 33:38space bar and it's just one of the great conference centers. Well I think in
544. 33:43North America and if you come to see us at the Cove you will not be disappointed
545. 33:48But before we get to calls I see we've got Ryan, we've got Scott, we'll get to the number
546. 33:54if you have a question or an apologetics issue, it's triple eight, five eight nine eighty eight
547. 33:59forty. But Jim what is your website? Where can people find you online?
548. 34:05Try to produce something three times a week, four times a week at coldcaseChristianity.com.
549. 34:11ColdcaseChristianity.com in the top banner right now has a link to the Case Files graphic
550. 34:16novel. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, let's go to questions. Ryan in Texas, thanks for
551. 34:23holding. Welcome to the program. Hey Ryan, Ryan, are you there? Ryan from Texas.
552. 34:34Okay, how about Scott in Mississippi? Scott, do we have you there? Okay, I'm not
553. 34:42hearing, guys. Do we have Scott? Do we have a caller online? Well, I'll tell you what,
554. 34:49But guys, either Bobby or, let's see, Richie text me when we get those questions up.
555. 34:58But we have an online call.
556. 35:01Jim, somebody asked, I'm sorry, an online question, how do we know that the apostles
557. 35:09preserve Jesus' words accurately?
558. 35:11I know in the Gospels, if you see red ink, the red letter, that's the words of Christ,
559. 35:17How do we know that the disciples preserve those words correctly or accurately?
560. 35:22Okay, so what we have to do is test them as eyewitnesses.
561. 35:26This is true, by the way, of anyone who makes a claim about anything that was said.
562. 35:29Let's say I've got a suspect in view who made a statement, and now I've got an eyewitness
563. 35:34who saw that statement and saw him say something.
564. 35:36Well, I've got to test that eyewitness to see under four criteria.
565. 35:40Now the state of California is pretty tough to win a case anymore.
566. 35:46We have the Ninth Circuit out here.
567. 35:47So it comes down to four criteria on the jury instructions.
568. 35:51One, were they really there to see what they saw?
569. 35:55This by the way, this is the only way we can test eyewitnesses.
570. 35:58If there was a better test, I'd love it if there was video.
571. 36:02But of course we don't have that in the first century.
572. 36:04But were they really there to see what they saw?
573. 36:06Two, can they be corroborated in some way?
574. 36:09Even if it's only a fraction of what they said, can the fraction at least be corroborated?
575. 36:13Three, have they changed what they said over time?
576. 36:15they've been consistently accurate and honest about what they've described.
577. 36:20And four, do they have a bias that would cause them to lie to us?
578. 36:25So these are the four criteria that we apply to any eyewitness.
579. 36:28And I think we can apply those to the gospel.
580. 36:30Here's what it would look like.
581. 36:31Number one, were these written early enough in history to have been written by eyewitnesses,
582. 36:38were they really there to see what they said they saw?
583. 36:40Here's why.
584. 36:41If you want to lie about what Jesus said, just wait until everyone knows the truth
585. 36:45is dead, then you can say whatever you want.
586. 36:47There's no one there to contradict you.
587. 36:49But if you're going to write this in the region,
588. 36:52in the generation of those who would have known better,
589. 36:55who could say, you know what, I saw that Jesus, dude,
590. 36:57he didn't do any of that stuff.
591. 36:59He didn't say any of that stuff.
592. 37:00That's a much harder sell, okay?
593. 37:03So I didn't know, first of all, how early are the gospels?
594. 37:06Second, do they make claims about geography and archeology,
595. 37:10about customs, about names, about other things
596. 37:13that we know can be corroborated from other sources that are non-biblical.
597. 37:16Three, have they changed their story?
598. 37:19In other words, how do we know that was the Gospel of John, for example?
599. 37:23In the first century is the same stuff we have in the Gospel of John in the 21st century.
600. 37:28And one of the things I always look at is a chain of custody.
601. 37:32When I get a piece of evidence that a crime scene 35 years ago, I want to know who touched it first.
602. 37:37Who did he give it to? Who did that guy give it to?
603. 37:40Where did he go to the laboratory?
604. 37:42When did he came back from the laboratory?
605. 37:43I traced the chain of custody.
606. 37:46You can actually do this with John's gospel
607. 37:48through Ignatius and polycarbonpapius
608. 37:51and the first generation, Aaron Nius
609. 37:53in the second generation, Hippolytus in the fourth,
610. 37:57third generation.
611. 37:58You can follow the people who took the words of John
612. 38:01and gave them to the next generation.
613. 38:03And you can read their writings in ancient church history
614. 38:07to see if the essential truths of Jesus have been modified.
615. 38:11in other words is he is he first described in a very
616. 38:15naturalistic way and only later is he described in a supernaturalistic way
617. 38:19as he is he becoming more more supernatural over time or
618. 38:23are the supernatural claims about jesus the earliest claims
619. 38:27that simply don't change their rigid in time
620. 38:30i needed to know that i needed to know how early is it doesn't change over time
621. 38:33finally
622. 38:34there's only three reasons why anyone lies
623. 38:36only three reasons there's not a fourth reason here they are sex money in power
624. 38:40pretty simple
625. 38:42well as white people commit murders
626. 38:44it's a similar to anyone lies so if you're thinking that the disciples lied
627. 38:48i know why they did it they did it for sex money or power but here's the problem
628. 38:53i can see no advantage for any of these folks in sex money or power
629. 38:57so now you're exactly lying and nothing in it for them
630. 39:01there's no incentive but it's not reasonable
631. 39:05hey i'm working to try the calls again at the great stuff here the voice you're
632. 39:08hearing is jay warner wallace
633. 39:10Let's try Kathy in Ohio.
634. 39:12Kathy, are you there?
635. 39:14Yes, I am.
636. 39:15Well, welcome to the program.
637. 39:17Thanks for holding.
638. 39:19Well, thank you so much.
639. 39:20This is such a timely topic.
640. 39:22And I guess I've listened to you, Mr.
641. 39:25Wallace, before really love your stuff.
642. 39:27I had no idea about your Mormon beginnings.
643. 39:30And I get through the reason why I'm listening, because my niece has
644. 39:34contacted me.
645. 39:35She's been sort of a strange and she's seeking a Lord.
646. 39:41and she is reaching out in the Bible every night together.
647. 39:46I'll be reading with her tonight,
648. 39:48but she has gone to a Mormon church.
649. 39:50That's how she sort of started.
650. 39:53She didn't grow up going.
651. 39:54He's been going there to have some more specific things
652. 40:01to when she asks questions.
653. 40:04Like for example, we're reading John and we're telling Grace.
654. 40:10You know, God gave us the grace of the law
655. 40:12and grace through Jesus.
656. 40:14And then we're talking about the law.
657. 40:16And I said, oh, God gave the law to Moses on a mountain.
658. 40:20Oh, that's just like the Mormons did in upstate New York.
659. 40:24And I'm like, oh, not really, dear.
660. 40:27So is there a resource that can help guide me more specifically
661. 40:34for the stuff like that?
662. 40:39Yeah, there is.
663. 40:40Now I'm going to just give me a second here
664. 40:41to see if I can find it online here real quick.
665. 40:46Yes, I think that part of the problem
666. 40:49is that most of the time when people enter into a church
667. 40:51like that, she's entering in because she probably
668. 40:53has a relationship with somebody, either a guy or a girlfriend, somebody she's got a relationship
669. 40:59with that has introduced her to the church.
670. 41:03I think what's interesting about that is, well, you need to find out who that is.
671. 41:08A lot of times you'll find that people become Mormons, they come out of a Christian background
672. 41:12where they weren't really kind of trained up to defend their faith as Christians.
673. 41:16Now they've been persuaded by somebody who's powerfully persuasive in their life from a
674. 41:19relationship perspective.
675. 41:20Now I've written a chapter about why I think the evidence for Mormonism is false
676. 41:26in a book called Sharing the Good News with Mormons. And it really contains,
677. 41:30those subtitles says it all, practical strategies for getting the conversation started.
678. 41:35And that's what you need here, is you need some practical strategies.
679. 41:39And this book is filled a chapter after chapter with different approaches,
680. 41:43different ways to cut the same pie. And I want you just to kind of think about that book.
681. 41:48is written by my friend eric johnson
682. 41:50uh... he's a lot of work with more men's lives there in salt lake city
683. 41:53and and we've all written a chapter taking a different angle
684. 41:57i think that is the one book
685. 41:59that is the most helpful because it's a conversation starting book
686. 42:03and it'll help you so there's a resource you're looking for i think that's it
687. 42:06sharing the good news with more men's
688. 42:08by eric johnson
689. 42:12you got a question thank you
690. 42:13you thank you
691. 42:16uh... the world there's another website of a colleague uh... christy wit
692. 42:20uh... goo and she's in colorado when i worked for focus on the family we used to
693. 42:24use her as a person or is that witnesses for jesus christy
694. 42:28darlington which is got a lot of great information i'd love to share some of
695. 42:32it but in the interest of time
696. 42:34uh... i want to be able to get some of callers but
697. 42:37blessings on you catholic
698. 42:38uh... let's try scott in mississippi scott are you there thanks for holding
699. 42:43i am thank you so much uh... yes i guess that i'm i appreciate the opportunity
700. 42:49i guess if you're wrong about jesus it doesn't matter what you're about huh
701. 42:53but anyway here you're right about if this is the most important decision anyone's
702. 42:57ever going to make for sure is who is jesus
703. 43:01absolutely
704. 43:02i was
705. 43:03uh... really a lot about this it's uh...
706. 43:06soon about the second law the second law says that verses actually running part of
707. 43:11musical energy and
708. 43:13Square up with us in our eternal
709. 43:17Exist which we will have and I know that it's going to be spiritual
710. 43:21But maybe you could delve into a little bit more because those questions. I think our pertinent for
711. 43:28Science back anyway, just kind of that's a great. Yeah, how will eternity work in light of the
712. 43:40Inescapable second law the law of entropy. What do you say Jim? Well, this we're talking about this is a law that
713. 43:45that basically happens in a physical universe and it contains physical, limited physical universe.
714. 43:52And that's the difference, right?
715. 43:53Because we're talking about can we apply the physics and chemistry that governs space, time,
716. 43:58and matter if there is no space, time, and matter with those with those laws, although they
717. 44:03reflect clearly reflect God's character.
718. 44:06The laws of physics are a reflection of his character, the laws of logic are a reflection
719. 44:09of his care of moral laws are a reflection of his character.
720. 44:13These are not things he created.
721. 44:14there's simply a reflection of his innate character.
722. 44:18But we're talking about something very different
723. 44:20when we're talking about the world that we consider
724. 44:25beyond this one.
725. 44:26So the question of course comes down to,
726. 44:28do the laws that we currently see
727. 44:30that apply to our physical universe we live in today?
728. 44:33Will those laws apply to the next world we live in?
729. 44:36And here's why I'm hesitant to say,
730. 44:37well, yes, of course they will,
731. 44:39or yes, of course they will, or no, of course they won't.
732. 44:41It's because if you look at what Paul says
733. 44:43first Corinthians about the resurrection body. It's clearly he's calling it a
734. 44:47resurrection body but he says it's as different as the seed is to the plant.
735. 44:51And that's why I'm hesitant to try to say well I know what it's going to be like
736. 44:55because if I give you a seed you wouldn't know from looking at that seed unless you
737. 44:59knew the seed really well. What kind of plants even going to emerge from that seed?
738. 45:03It's so different from the seed that I can't even imagine what it's going to
739. 45:06produce and I think that's the reality of what we are going to experience next
740. 45:11is that yes, we have a body, we call it a body,
741. 45:14and we call it the next thing,
742. 45:15we're gonna have a resurrection body,
743. 45:16we use the same word,
744. 45:17but it is so substantically different
745. 45:20that it would be foolish, I think, for me to say that,
746. 45:22well, whatever governs our bodies today
747. 45:24is also gonna govern our bodies in the future.
748. 45:26And I think that's part of the mystery.
749. 45:29Look, let's put it this way.
750. 45:30If we really think that as finite human beings
751. 45:33with limited knowledge,
752. 45:35we can answer some of the most important questions
753. 45:37about the nature of a holy, infinite God,
754. 45:41then we probably don't have the right God in our mind to begin with. That's probably
755. 45:44a God of our own creation because we think we can describe it completely. We think we have
756. 45:49the ability to understand that kind of God completely. I think that if there is a God,
757. 45:53we should expect that there's going to be a great deal of mystery because the difference
758. 45:56between us and that God is so pronounced that I don't think I'm going to be able to...I
759. 46:02hold a lot of things with an open hand because it seems to me that if there is a God, I should
760. 46:06not have that level of comprehension about him. There should be an awe and mystery to the
761. 46:11nature of God.
762. 46:12Well said. Thank you so much. Let's try to squeeze in another call. Cory, Cory in Mississippi.
763. 46:20Thanks for holding. Are you there?
764. 46:22Hey, yes I am. Thanks for taking my call.
765. 46:25Good to hear from you.
766. 46:26Hi, Cory.
767. 46:28Hey, so I was calling. I'll try to make it kind of quick. Over the last month, the beginning
768. 46:33of the year, I have a six-year-old son and we've been sitting down at the breakfast table
769. 46:37and I've been reading him a morning meditation for kids,
770. 46:40and we've also started praying over our supper.
771. 46:43Well, we were watching something on the news
772. 46:46about the wildfires in California a week or two ago,
773. 46:49and Noah asked me, he said,
774. 46:51Dad, why would God let something like that happen?
775. 46:55And the answer that I gave him was,
776. 46:58sometimes God just does things,
777. 47:00and we're not for sure why.
778. 47:01He does things that we don't understand,
779. 47:03but I just really blew his mind and just really stumped him
780. 47:06why the God would allow things like that to happen,
781. 47:10and I didn't know the best way to answer it.
782. 47:13Well, a couple of things I would say about that.
783. 47:15First of all, we're not living in the garden,
784. 47:17and we're not yet in paradise.
785. 47:19We're in that period of time between the two gardens,
786. 47:22between the Garden of Eden and the restored and renewed earth.
787. 47:25We're in this period of time in which we are no longer
788. 47:28in a world that is the perfect creation of God.
789. 47:31We're in the world that we have destroyed.
790. 47:33We're in the world that has now fallen and broken,
791. 47:36that even in creation groans in this period of time
792. 47:39between the gardens.
793. 47:41And so why would this happen?
794. 47:43Well, there's lots of reasons why it will happen.
795. 47:44I'll just throw one out though
796. 47:45that some people hardly ever talk about.
797. 47:48That when we see a natural quote unquote disaster,
798. 47:51often that natural disaster is actually an act of man.
799. 47:55And it's due to something that man has even neglected,
800. 47:58decided he's gonna live right next to it anyway,
801. 48:01and put himself in harm's way.
802. 48:02And as soon as this defyer is done and they rebuild,
803. 48:05Many people rebuild right back there in the same dangerous area.
804. 48:09Jim, we're almost out of town.
805. 48:10So I think a lot of natural evil is our contribution.
806. 48:15Yeah, we're in a sinful, fallen world.
807. 48:17Thank you for that call.
808. 48:18Jay, Warner Wallace, thank you for being with us tonight.
809. 48:20Look forward to being with you this summer at the Cove.
810. 48:23Folks, stay tuned to the American Family Radio Network.
811. 48:25And may God bless you.
812. 48:26Thank you for listening.
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833. 49:31The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.