Dr. Alex McFarland is joined by Christian Apologist, Frank Turek and Dr. E. Ray Moore, President of Frontline Ministries, Inc.

Transcribed with OpenAI Whisper (base.en). Timestamps are approximate. Lightly cleaned for readability; quotations from on-air callers may include filler words. Use the audio player above for the authoritative recording.

1. 0:00Darkness is not an affirmative force.
2. 0:02It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
3. 0:06This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
4. 0:10It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite.
5. 0:15Delivering people out of the bondage of mainstream media.
6. 0:18And the philosophies of this world.
7. 0:20God has called you and me to be His ambassador.
8. 0:24Even in this dark moment.
9. 0:26Let's not miss our moment.
10. 0:28and now, The Hamilton Corner.
11. 0:32Well, good evening everybody.
12. 0:34Alex McFarland here, you're listening
13. 0:35to the American Family Radio Network
14. 0:37and I've got the privilege of sitting in
15. 0:39for Attorney, Pastor, and Broadcaster Abe Hamilton III.
16. 0:43We've got a great show and we're gonna do something
17. 0:46that we don't always do.
18. 0:48I'm gonna forego a lot of preliminary or opening monologue
19. 0:52and I wanna get right to a guest that I was with on Saturday.
20. 0:56known Frank Turic for a lot of years and really when it comes to apologetic
21. 1:01speakers he is absolutely in the top two or three that you'll ever hear like
22. 1:08anywhere and he and I the privilege last weekend we were in Tupelo, Mississippi
23. 1:12at the AFA activate summit that was a fantastic event I spoke on the canon and
24. 1:18Frank spoke on the existence of God and absolute truth but I'm going to give the
25. 1:24number because perhaps you have a question on defending the faith or biblical worldview.
26. 1:29There's so much in the news every day.
27. 1:31The number by the way is triple eight, five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty triple eight,
28. 1:37five, eight, nine, eighty eight, forty and while the phone calls come in.
29. 1:41I want to say a welcome to our special guest Frank Turic.
30. 1:46Thanks for making time to be with us, Frank.
31. 1:48The great Alex McFarland.
32. 1:50So he's great being with you.
33. 1:52And I saw Abraham briefly at in Tupelo last week too.
34. 1:55So it was good to see him and all our friends down there
35. 1:58at AFA, the American Family Radio Network
36. 2:00all over the country now.
37. 2:02By the way, Alex, you did see that Supreme Court decision
38. 2:06come down, which was a favorable decision for reality
39. 2:11that it sided with the Tennessee law,
40. 2:13that Tennessee could restrict minors
41. 2:17from having these doctors basically amputate perfectly healthy sex organs in the name of
42. 2:26the misnamed gender affirming care. So instead of doing Joseph Mengele type surgeries on young
43. 2:35people, the Supreme Court realized that the state of Tennessee and therefore other states
44. 2:42have the ability to restrict those kinds of experimental
45. 2:47surgeries that lead to awful consequences long term?
46. 2:52Yeah, and thank God for some sanity coming out
47. 2:55of the US Supreme Court, and some of the justices
48. 2:57appointed by conservatives like Donald Trump
49. 3:01helped not only stand for reality and truth,
50. 3:05but really for the welfare of minors.
51. 3:07And, you know, Frank, let's talk about this for a second,
52. 3:10Because many years ago, one of your books that frankly is my favorite is the book on
53. 3:17legislating morality.
54. 3:19And those that were advocating for minors getting hormone replacement therapy and puberty
55. 3:25blockers and such, they tried unsuccessfully to invoke the 14th Amendment.
56. 3:32But basically, and I want you to comment on this, if transgenderism were treated like,
57. 3:41you know, the civil rights movement of the 60s, it would make a behavior and ethnicity.
58. 3:48And homosexual behavior or transgender ideation, that is not an immutable genetic ethnicity,
59. 3:57is it?
60. 4:00mentioned and that's what we point out in the book,
61. 4:01legislating morality. There are many former homosexuals,
62. 4:05you'll never find a former so-called African American, right?
63. 4:09And he never find a former Hispanic or Caucasian.
64. 4:12That's an ethnicity that has nothing to do with behavior, by
65. 4:15the way. But same sex or any sexual behavior is a behavior.
66. 4:21It's not a immutable trait.
67. 4:23It's the ability or it's the decision to engage in some sort of sexual
68. 4:27behavior and that's what laws do.
69. 4:29They regulate behaviors, all laws legislate morality.
70. 4:32The only question is whose morality?
71. 4:34In fact, the people pushing against the Tennessee law
72. 4:38were trying to say that minors and their parents
73. 4:42had a moral right to alter the anatomy
74. 4:46and the genetics of a young person.
75. 4:50When I say genetics, they can't change their biology
76. 4:52but they can give them hormones.
77. 4:54And they said that was morally right.
78. 4:56And the same people said, no, it's not morally right.
79. 4:59It's immoral to do that to a young person who can't even consent.
80. 5:03Do you have hope, Frank, that maybe our judiciary will get back to legislating in light of moral
81. 5:15absolutes?
82. 5:17I want them to legislate in light of the Constitution, which does have moral absolutes.
83. 5:22So I don't want them legislating.
84. 5:24I want them applying the laws that have already been passed
85. 5:28and the Supreme Law in our country
86. 5:30is the United States Constitution.
87. 5:32So I don't think anywhere in the Constitution,
88. 5:36it says that a state cannot restrict certain experiments
89. 5:41on young people and for people to come along and say,
90. 5:45oh, the Constitution somehow gives young people
91. 5:48minors the right to these radical surgeries.
92. 5:52That's just, that's not what the 14th Amendment was about.
93. 5:55The 14th Amendment was about not, not hindering the rights of newly freed slaves who now had
94. 6:04the ability to, to vote and had nothing to do with minors trying to change their gender,
95. 6:10which is impossible to do.
96. 6:12Exactly, exactly.
97. 6:14Folks, if you're just tuning in, the voice you're hearing is that a Frank Turic, apologist,
98. 6:18author, and I'm proud to say long time friend and colleague.
99. 6:22And we will take calls if you have a question, the number is triple eight, five, eight, nine,
100. 6:27eighty eight, forty.
101. 6:28Hey before we go too much farther, Frank, I want you to give your website and just bring
102. 6:32us up to speed on your tour schedule and what you're doing these days.
103. 6:36Yeah, crossexamine.org is our website.
104. 6:39We have a radio program here in the American Family Radio Network.
105. 6:42It's called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an atheist at airs every Saturday morning at
106. 6:459th, Central and 4pm on Sunday, Central Time. And we also have a podcast that isn't on the
107. 6:52AFR network. It's the same place you'd get the radio program. It's the American Family
108. 6:59Radio Network. Or you could go to wherever you find podcasts. It's called the I Don't
109. 7:03Have Enough Faith to be an atheist podcast. We do two of those a week and we present evidence
110. 7:07for Christianity. We cross-examine ideas against them. We also talk about these moral issues that
111. 7:11impact all of us and Christians. You ought to be concerned about moral issues because you're
112. 7:16commanded to love your neighbor. And if you have the ability to protect children from butchers
113. 7:23who want to lop off their sex organs and you don't take that opportunity to protect them,
114. 7:28how are you loving their neighbor? You're a neighbor. You're not. You need to be engaged.
115. 7:33Exactly. And do you know, Frank, the idea that I can change my gender, the idea that
116. 7:43non-binary, and there is this unlimited autonomy over my existence, I want to say something,
117. 7:54I want you to agree or disagree. I think it's demonic, because I mean, think about this,
118. 7:58One thing to say, God can't tell me how to behave, but really the transgender worldview
119. 8:05is like saying, God doesn't even have the right to define what or who I am.
120. 8:11God has no claim on my life whatsoever.
121. 8:13And that level of militant autonomy that I am completely in control of my own reality,
122. 8:20I really think that that's a satanic mindset.
123. 8:24that.
124. 8:26Yeah, sure.
125. 8:27And you know, the ancients realized that their goal was to conform their passions to reality,
126. 8:34whereas today we think we want to conform reality to our passions.
127. 8:38Yeah.
128. 8:39And that's a fool's errand.
129. 8:40You can't do that.
130. 8:41And notice when you brought that up, Alex, it's well said, you, you were saying that people
131. 8:46will say to God, you don't have the right to tell me what to do.
132. 8:50that's a moral position that they think they have a moral right to not have anybody else
133. 8:56interfere with what they do, including their creator. Well, if there is no God, there are no moral
134. 9:01rights. There is no standard objective standard of morality. We're just overgrown germs. In this case,
135. 9:07I would agree with Richard Dawkins, the famous atheist who said, basically, if there's no God,
136. 9:11we're just dancing to our DNA. There's no right or wrong, good or bad. There's no justice or injustice.
137. 9:17Yes, he says, there's just chance, there's just, the things just happened.
138. 9:22Some people are going to get lucky and some people are going to get hurt and there's no
139. 9:25rhyme or reason to it.
140. 9:26If atheism is true, he's right.
141. 9:28And yet these atheists are claiming, no, I have a right to do this, I have a right to do that.
142. 9:32If there is no God, there are no rights to anything.
143. 9:35There's not only no right to life, there's no right to abortion, there's no right to same-sex
144. 9:39marriage or natural marriage or trans rights or human rights or Christian rights.
145. 9:43There are no rights to anything unless God exists.
146. 9:46Exactly.
147. 9:47I mean, think about this, and Frank, I want you to elaborate on this if you would.
148. 9:51I mean, when we say something is right or wrong, this is good, that is bad.
149. 9:56This is moral, that was immoral.
150. 10:00Doesn't it presuppose there's an objective unchanging standard of goodness from which we
151. 10:04measure?
152. 10:05Yeah, otherwise you wouldn't be able to adjudicate between your moral ID and say Hitler's moral
153. 10:12idea. If there's not a standard beyond both human beings and that were obligated to obey,
154. 10:19then you can't say you're closer to the right than say Hitler is, because there is no right
155. 10:23unless God exists. I'd also point out that in order for there to be moral rights at all,
156. 10:30not only does God must exist, but there has to be a purpose to life. If there is no purpose
157. 10:35to life, you can't say here's the right way to live life and here's the wrong way to live
158. 10:39life. Just like if there's no purpose to a football game, you can't say that your team scoring a touchdown
159. 10:46is a good play and the other team scoring a touchdown is a bad play because unless you know the purpose
160. 10:53of the game, which is to win the game, you can't say one play is better than another, they're just
161. 10:59different. And unless you know the purpose of life, you can't say here's the right way to live it,
162. 11:04loving people, and here's the wrong way to live it, murdering them. So there's got to be a
163. 11:09purpose and there's got to be a moral authority and there's got to be a standard and those things
164. 11:13only exist if God exists.
165. 11:15And so the only way we can make meaningful value judgments, remember was bad, Mother Teresa
166. 11:22was good, Osama bin Laden was evil, Billy Graham was good.
167. 11:29The only way we can meaningfully make value judgments like that is if there is an objective
168. 11:34standard from which we measure i.e. God. Is that what you're saying?
169. 11:38And that can only come from a person because you don't have obligations to say in personal
170. 11:45forces. You don't have an obligation to gravity. When you try and say dunk a basketball, you're
171. 11:51not sinning against the law of gravity. You only have moral obligations to persons. So
172. 11:57unless there's a personal being who is the ground of right and wrong, who created us and we're
173. 12:04obligated to obey him, nothing's ultimately right or wrong.
174. 12:07Yeah, when I was a little kid, I got a bath towel and I thought I was super
175. 12:11man. And I seriously, I got up on this fence to fly off. I was about five years old.
176. 12:16And I had personal interaction with the law of gravity then Frank.
177. 12:20But I really did.
178. 12:23I did that once.
179. 12:25They just did it once.
180. 12:27Yeah.
181. 12:27I like to say to people when we talk about truth, we're not talking about true for
182. 12:32me a true for you. We're talking about truth like gravity's true, like you discovered Alex.
183. 12:36But here's the thing, you know, seriously, I, Brian Kullif road, Greensboro, North Carolina,
184. 12:40I was like five years old. I got this bath towel. I thought I was Superman. Frank, I was
185. 12:44sincere. When I jumped off the backyard fence, what happened? I was utterly sincere. Why
186. 12:52didn't I fly? You were sincerely wrong. Yeah, that's true. Absolutely. Hey, we're talking
187. 12:58with Dr. Frank Turic, longtime colleague and friend and master apologist, you know,
188. 13:04on this thing about morals and the existence of God which enables us to make correct, life-saving,
189. 13:15soul-saving value judgments.
190. 13:17Do you have a homework assignment for us?
191. 13:19Do you have a book you would recommend on this, Frank?
192. 13:22Well, yeah, I have plenty of books.
193. 13:24I don't have enough faith to be an atheist as the book that Dr. Geisture and I wrote.
194. 13:28know Dr. Geyser very well and we argue from the ground up that Christianity is true. If you want to
195. 13:32take a funner approach to it, my son and I put together a book called Hollywood Heroes, how your
196. 13:37favorite movies reveal God and you'd be shocked to understand or to learn that most of the blockbuster
197. 13:43movies of the past 50 years have all stolen from the greatest story ever told, the story of Jesus.
198. 13:49All these heroes are modeled after the ultimate hero, Jesus of Nazareth. And that's why we wrote
199. 13:54Hollywood heroes. I know there's a lot of garbage that comes out of Hollywood, but there's a lot of lessons you can learn from a good movie if you know
200. 14:00Where to look. Do you know Frank? I've got a book. It's a very scholarly book
201. 14:04I think it probably was somebody's dissertation, but it's it's a book titled how the Jews invented Superman and
202. 14:10It's the story of how really comics
203. 14:14Came about by many Jewish writers because it was a Messiah figure a savior a promise
204. 14:20deliverer who came at the critical moment. Now we've got a break folks we're
205. 14:25talking with Dr. Frank Turc we've got a big show Alex McFarland here sitting in
206. 14:29for Abe Hamilton the third the number if you want to take a call or bring a
207. 14:34question we'll get your call it's triple eight five eight nine eighty eight
208. 14:38forty lot going on in the culture in the world lot going on in the Middle East
209. 14:42we'll do our best to cover much of it in this hour stay tuned more with our
210. 14:46guest Frank Turc after this brief break. The month of June has been hijacked
211. 15:09by the anti-Christian culture to show their pride in something God calls an abomination.
212. 15:14When you support AFR, you help us continue to stand for godly values and provide the resources
213. 15:20for you to stay in the know about the enemy's tactics.
214. 15:23To say thank you for your gift this month, we'll give you the booklet inside the LGBTQ
215. 15:28push of the 1990s to help strengthen your convictions.
216. 15:32Just go to aFR.net slash offers.
217. 15:35AFR.net slash offers.
218. 15:42Shining lightning to the darkness.
219. 15:44This is the Hamilton Quarter, an American family radio.
220. 15:49Welcome back to the program.
221. 15:51I am just now back on the East Coast
222. 15:53after being in Iowa, our second of seven summer youth camps.
223. 15:58And I want to thank everybody who's been praying for us.
224. 16:00It's going great.
225. 16:01We're seeing kids get saved, kids get really turned on to biblical worldview and apologetics.
226. 16:07And talking about apologetics, broadly, our friend Frank Turic, who is a very well-known
227. 16:14voice and a social media star when it comes to apologetics and biblical worldview.
228. 16:20And there's a lot I want to ask you, Frank, but you know, you and I have both kind of
229. 16:25been in the apologetics world a while.
230. 16:29What have you seen change from say 20 years ago?
231. 16:34Do you feel like the questions people are grappling with have changed?
232. 16:38Yeah, the top three questions or objections to Christianity are morality, morality and
233. 16:44morality.
234. 16:45Okay.
235. 16:46That's all about morality.
236. 16:47It's like how people live now.
237. 16:49It used to be, is Christianity true?
238. 16:52Now is Christianity good?
239. 16:54And is it going to make me happy?
240. 16:55Yeah.
241. 16:56Is it going to allow me to do what I want to do?
242. 16:58That's why I always ask people on college campuses, if Christianity were true, would you become
243. 17:02a Christian?
244. 17:03And a lot of times, Alex, they'll say no, because it's not a matter of the head.
245. 17:07It's a matter of the heart.
246. 17:08They don't want it to be true.
247. 17:09They don't want there to be a God because they want to be God over their own lives.
248. 17:12So they're not on a truth quest or on a happiness quest.
249. 17:15And they're just going to believe whatever they think is going to make them happy.
250. 17:18And the problem is, is when you're young, you can make yourself happy over the short term,
251. 17:22doing a lot of fun, but ultimately sinful and selfish things.
252. 17:27over the long term, it's a disaster. And everyone over 40 who's listening to us right now knows
253. 17:31what we're talking about because many of us have tried it ourselves. You know, we're just
254. 17:35going to live our way, my way. No, you're not, not very long. I mean, if you, if you try
255. 17:39and live totally for yourself, if you're a complete me monster, who's going to put up
256. 17:44with that? What's going to happen to your relationships? You're going to wind up divorced,
257. 17:49addicted, broken, alone, and probably prematurely dead. If you want contentment, you got to go
258. 17:55straight through truth and Jesus is the truth. But it's not always easy. It's not always doing
259. 18:00what you want to do. It's following Him. Amen. Well said. You know, I've got a stat, last week
260. 18:07I was on a show with groundwire.net and Sean Dunn, great guy and he gave a stat from the
261. 18:16Barna research group that of Gen Z and younger, like 46% think Christianity is not a net positive.
262. 18:2746% from one poll think that Christianity is a net negative and bad for the culture.
263. 18:35Now, we know, folks, Acts 4 verse 12, there is no other name under heaven given among men,
264. 18:40whereby we must be saved. Jesus is the one and only Redeemer.
265. 18:45the Savior and wherever Christianity has gone, there's been the betterment of the human condition.
266. 18:52Yeah, things have changed. I mean, 25 years ago, Frank, college guys were asking me,
267. 18:59you know, where did the Bible come from? Or is there evidence for Christ's resurrection?
268. 19:06And we still get that a little bit, but now you're right, it is morality.
269. 19:10You know, what gives God the right to tell me how to live, and what gives God the right to
270. 19:16interfere with our life? So here's the question, how do you approach that when there is such a
271. 19:22hubris that God has no right to speak into my life, and I'm not answerable to Almighty God?
272. 19:30How do you begin to minister to someone who is in that posture?
273. 19:34I just begin to ask them questions, you know, by what moral standard are you making that judgment?
274. 19:41Where does your morality come from? And people always confuse knowing right and wrong from
275. 19:48explaining where right and wrong comes from, you know, the existence of right. They always confuse,
276. 19:55as we say in philosophy, they confuse epistemology. That's how you know something. With ontology,
277. 20:02the study of the thing you're supposed to know. And so they'll say, well, I don't need to be a
278. 20:07Christian to be a good person. Okay, that's true. But you just can't justify what good is unless
279. 20:12God exists. And so I always try and ask them by what moral standard are you making that claim?
280. 20:17And if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? By the way, you pointed out a second
281. 20:21ago, Alex, that Christianity is a positive in terms of human flourishing for people, wherever
282. 20:30Christian worldview takes over, it tends to lead to human flourishing. I'm gonna
283. 20:38read the top 10 countries in terms of Muslim population and you tell me if
284. 20:46these are any places you would go on vacation. Indonesia, Pakistan, India,
285. 20:53Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, you might go to Egypt because it has pre-Islamic
286. 20:59archaeology there. Turkey, well it's got some Christian church history there.
287. 21:06Iran, China, and Algeria. To any of those places sound like they're places A, you'd
288. 21:12like to go on vacation or B, that these are places where human rights are
289. 21:17respected. Generally, no. Human rights are respected in Christian nations and
290. 21:22When I say Christian, I don't mean Christian by government, but Christian by population,
291. 21:27they have a background of Christianity, you would want to live in the nations that have
292. 21:32a background in Christianity, not that have a background in Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism,
293. 21:39primarily because the Christian worldview does help people flourish.
294. 21:42Indeed, indeed it does.
295. 21:45For a moment, let's talk about your book, Stealing from God, because as you reference the West,
296. 21:52Even prior to the founding of America, the West was based on the Judeo-Christian worldview
297. 21:58and from the Magna Carta through British common law, it was really a human rights, moral absolute,
298. 22:08moral truth culture like ours would ultimately become, but it was based on a theistic worldview.
299. 22:16And so the atheists, they don't like Christianity, but when they invoke their moral ideas, it's
300. 22:22wrong. I think you set forth the premise that they're actually invariably having to borrow
301. 22:29from Christian Theism, aren't they?
302. 22:31Yeah, they're stealing from God while they're arguing against him. Like for example, you mentioned
303. 22:35evil. They'll say there's too much evil in the world. But then you asked them, what do
304. 22:38you mean by evil? They can't discover what evil is unless they have a standard of good,
305. 22:44because evil is not a thing in itself. It's a lack and a good thing. I mean, evil is like
306. 22:49If you take all the cancer out of a good body, you've got a better body. But what happens
307. 22:54if you take all the body out of the cancer? You got nothing. It doesn't exist or evil is
308. 22:59like rust in a car. If you take all the rust out of a car, you got a better car. What happens
309. 23:03if you take all the car out of the rust? You got a pinto, right? No, it doesn't exist. So,
310. 23:11so evil is a privation or a parasite in good. And as soon as atheists say there's too much
311. 23:15evil in the world, they're presupposing good. But good does not exist in an atheistic worldview.
312. 23:20So where do they get their concept of good from? They steal it from God, while claiming
313. 23:24he doesn't exist. So that's why the book is called Stealing from God, why atheists need
314. 23:29God to make their case. And they do the same thing with reason and information and morality
315. 23:34and science and causality. They steal from God while claiming God doesn't exist. In effect,
316. 23:41to sit in God's lap to slap his face.
317. 23:44I got one last question for you.
318. 23:46Do you have a favorite area of apologetics
319. 23:49or when you became a believer, Dr. Frank Turic,
320. 23:53and you understood the gospel, it clicked for you.
321. 23:57You gave your life to Christ.
322. 23:59Was there an argument that you found especially compelling?
323. 24:05And if so, what would that be?
324. 24:07Yeah, there are two major steps we need to take
325. 24:10to show that Christianity is true. And one is to show that God exists and the second is
326. 24:14to show that Jesus rose from the dead. So if those two facts are true, that God exists
327. 24:19in Jesus rose from the dead, then game over Christianity is true. You can show the whole
328. 24:23Bible is true if those two facts are true. And for me, the primary argument for God that
329. 24:30I find persuasive, I find a lot of them persuasive, but I think the one that gives me the most
330. 24:35attributes of God is what we call the cosmological argument, that the universe had a beginning,
331. 24:41that space-time and matter had a beginning, and if it had a beginning, then it must have
332. 24:45had a beginner.
333. 24:46And even atheists are admitting the universe had a beginning.
334. 24:49Well, if space-time and matter had a beginning, then whatever cause-space-time and matter can't
335. 24:54be made a space-time and matter, it must transcend space-time and matter.
336. 24:58And so the cause must at least be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal in
337. 25:06order to choose to create and also intelligent.
338. 25:09And I always ask audiences, I say, hey, when you think about a spaceless, timeless, immaterial,
339. 25:13powerful, personal, intelligent cause, who do you think of?
340. 25:17And they always say, God.
341. 25:18But then they might say, well, how do you know it's the Christian God?
342. 25:20And my answer is we don't.
343. 25:22Yet this could be Allah or some other theistic or deistic God.
344. 25:26But if you can get evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, and there's good evidence that
345. 25:29he did, then we can say that the same being that walked out of the tomb, 1,992 years ago,
346. 25:36is the same being in whose divine nature created the universe out of nothing.
347. 25:41And I think one of the best evidences that they, that Jesus rose from the dead, that
348. 25:47they're several, but I'll just mention one of them, is there's too many embarrassing details
349. 25:51in the text, Alex, that never would have been invented if this was an invented story.
350. 25:56Like the disciples wouldn't have said that Jesus scolded Peter and called him Satan.
351. 26:02They wouldn't have said that...
352. 26:04The women went to the tomb first.
353. 26:07What's that?
354. 26:08Well the women went to the tomb first.
355. 26:09Oh, the women went to the tomb first.
356. 26:12They wouldn't say that Peter denied Christ three times.
357. 26:15They wouldn't say they ran away and hid for fear of the Jews.
358. 26:18They wouldn't say they doubted after he was resurrected, Matthew 28, 17, right?
359. 26:23They wouldn't say that Jesus was called a madman, a drunkard, a, you know, demon possessed.
360. 26:28They wouldn't hang them on a tree that was considered blasphemy or considered someone who
361. 26:34was under God's curse to the Jews.
362. 26:37You wouldn't crucify your Messiah, right?
363. 26:39You wouldn't make this up, in other words.
364. 26:41And they didn't think that one guy would rise from the dead in the middle of time.
365. 26:46They didn't think a guy could claim to be God.
366. 26:48That was blasphemy.
367. 26:49These were Jews.
368. 26:50They're not making this up.
369. 26:51So there's very good evidence he rose from the dead.
370. 26:53That's just one line of at least 10 lines of evidence we talk about and I don't have
371. 26:56enough faith to be an atheist.
372. 26:58Sure.
373. 26:59And a moment ago you mentioned the universe had a beginning.
374. 27:03I mean, God must exist.
375. 27:04The universe had a beginning and since nothing can cause itself to exist, there had to have
376. 27:10been a cause.
377. 27:11It's funny, I was on science.com, Frank.
378. 27:15I'll tell you this and I'll let you go, my dear friend.
379. 27:18It was an article about panspermia.
380. 27:22Did aliens seed life here?
381. 27:26Did they come from another galaxy and seed life?
382. 27:29And this article in science.com, it was saying, well, whoever these forces were that brought
383. 27:35life here, it had to be beyond nature, like supernatural.
384. 27:41all power, all knowledge, all ability.
385. 27:47And I thought, you're trying to posit
386. 27:50that aliens brought life here,
387. 27:52but you're telling me about the attributes of God.
388. 27:55And if you're going to invoke a supernatural outside
389. 27:58causal force, why not go with the one we have evidence for?
390. 28:01Right?
391. 28:02Yeah, absolutely.
392. 28:03It's interesting.
393. 28:04I think Wes Huff made this point on Rogan.
394. 28:05He said, Rogan said something about the fact
395. 28:08that the atheists want you to believe in at least one miracle, the creation of the universe
396. 28:13out of nothing. And Wes said, yeah, they don't have any problem with the virgin birth of the
397. 28:20universe, but they have a problem with the virgin birth of Christ.
398. 28:23Wow. That's great. That's great.
399. 28:26Now, of course, Christ was virgin born, but he had a cause, God, right? His virgin conceived.
400. 28:34Well, the same thing is true with the universe. And by the way, the atheist believe in a lot
401. 28:37more miracles than we then than they say. They believe that no one created something out of nothing.
402. 28:43They believe that life gave rise to non-life without intelligence. They believe, of course,
403. 28:48the universe is fine-tuned without a fine-tuner. Well, inanimate matter produce consciousness.
404. 28:54Yeah, matter produce, they believe all these things without any sort of intelligence.
405. 28:59And it seems to take a lot more faith to believe that and to believe that there is an
406. 29:04Uncaused first cause who created and sustains the entire universe
407. 29:08You know, I've got a book title for your Frank. You should do a book called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist
408. 29:15Brilliant go for it, man. Hey, you're well must have done that already
409. 29:20Hey, I gotta let you go. We're gonna change gears. Hey, let's visit again
410. 29:24And they're there like a thousand more questions that I want to ask you but I want to thank you for your time tonight and folks
411. 29:30go hear him when he comes to a town near you.
412. 29:33It's Dr. Frank Turic, Cross-Examined.
413. 29:36Give us your website one more time, brother.
414. 29:39Cross-examined.org, that's Cross-Examined with a D on the end of it.
415. 29:43Don't forget we're on the American Family Radio Network Saturday mornings 9am Central
416. 29:47and 4pm Central on Sunday and we did two podcasts.
417. 29:52So look for the, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist podcast.
418. 29:54Also, we have a YouTube channel, the Cross-Examined YouTube channel, two words.
419. 29:58There's 2700 videos up there.
420. 30:00Most of them are Q&A's from the college campus.
421. 30:03So just about every question has been asked,
422. 30:05and it's on camera so you can check it out.
423. 30:08Godspeed my friend.
424. 30:09Thanks for being with us.
425. 30:10Thanks, Alex.
426. 30:11God bless you.
427. 30:12This is Alex McFarlane.
428. 30:13You're listening to the American Family Radio Network.
429. 30:15We're going to change gears.
430. 30:16And I know we've got a break coming up.
431. 30:18I want to queue up a longtime friend and colleague,
432. 30:21Dr. Ray Moore of Exodus International.
433. 30:26And we'll have to have a brief greeting,
434. 30:28and then we'll go in deep conversation in the third segment.
435. 30:32But Colonel Ray Moore, thanks for holding
436. 30:35and welcome to the program.
437. 30:38You see me right up to you.
438. 30:41I do see you.
439. 30:42Yes, have you been my friend?
440. 30:45Okay, good.
441. 30:46It's good to have you on.
442. 30:47And when we hear that music, I'll take this commercial break,
443. 30:51but the Exodus mandate.
444. 30:56That's Texas Mandy.
445. 30:57Yes.
446. 30:58Give us that website if you would, Ray.
447. 31:01Exodusmandate.org.
448. 31:06You know, you've got to feel pretty good
449. 31:08about the, even today I was talking with parents
450. 31:11who have gotten their kids out of public,
451. 31:14I call it government schools,
452. 31:15I used to say public schools, government schools.
453. 31:19The millions that have gone into Christian schooling
454. 31:23or homeschooling since COVID,
455. 31:25kind of makes you look like a prophet, my friend.
456. 31:30It's been pretty gratifying, you know,
457. 31:33obedience to God is his own reward,
458. 31:36but we're living, living our dream now.
459. 31:38It's coming to pass.
460. 31:40Yeah, well, and then you and I have an event this fall.
461. 31:43I know that's along ways away, and we'll talk again before that.
462. 31:47But folks, we're talking with Colonel E. Ray Moore of Exodus Mandate,
463. 31:52and we'll talk about education, talk about a lot going on in the world, but this is the
464. 31:57Hamilton Corner on the American Family Radio Network, Alex McFarland, sitting in for Abe
465. 32:02Hamilton. If you recognize my voice, it's probably from exploring the word, which is also heard
466. 32:07on AFR every afternoon, three to four. And you can listen to this program again at AFR.net
467. 32:13where all the shows are archived. Say tune Colonel Ray Moore after this brief break. Don't
468. 32:19away.
469. 32:38AFA action takes attacks on the family seriously.
470. 32:42The enemies of the family constantly employ new tactics to try to sneak past our radar.
471. 32:47They know if we stand together their evil plans will fail.
472. 32:51Your gift to AFA action allows us to stay vigilant against their onslaught.
473. 32:55And if you give this month, you'll receive access to the Cultural Institute video when
474. 32:59your faith is illegal by Frank Harbor on AFA Stream as our thanks.
475. 33:04You can make your gift today at AFAAction.net.
476. 33:08All right, Sandy Rios with you.
477. 33:10One more drama playing out.
478. 33:12Is the sky falling?
479. 33:13Are we going into a recession?
480. 33:15Are you going to lose all of your 401K?
481. 33:17Are you going to lose your job?
482. 33:18Are you going to be able to afford groceries?
483. 33:20People better be training their kids, getting back into church, Sunday school, reading the
484. 33:24Bible.
485. 33:25That revolution will save this country.
486. 33:26We've got a political revolution now.
487. 33:29We need a spiritual revolution.
488. 33:31Sandy Rios on Sandy Rios 24-7.
489. 33:35Listen on the podcast page at AFR.net.
490. 33:37The Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Bitted Common Terrets
491. 33:46are available at AFR.net.
492. 33:48Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio.
493. 33:54Dr. E. Ray Moore is not only a servant of the King.
494. 33:58He has honorably served our country in the military.
495. 34:01And I'm going to be with him in September.
496. 34:03I know this is a long way off.
497. 34:05and we'll no doubt have him on the radio prior to that.
498. 34:08But in September, in Lynchburg, Virginia,
499. 34:10there is the CEI Summit 6.
500. 34:14And I'll be speaking on advancing Christ's kingdom
501. 34:16through biblical worldview education.
502. 34:19And I know there'll be other speakers.
503. 34:22Dr. Ray Moore, this is kind of a Christian homeschooling event.
504. 34:29Is this open to the public at all?
505. 34:33Well, it's open, but we invite, we won't leaders.
506. 34:38It's not just open for anybody to show up.
507. 34:42They have to register.
508. 34:44And it's a conference of major leaders like C&P,
509. 34:48you know that.
510. 34:49Yes.
511. 34:51So yeah, if someone is a leader in Christian education
512. 34:54or worldview, and that can be higher ed or K-12 homeschooling,
513. 35:01yeah, we would invite them.
514. 35:02and if they're interested, they can contact us through the webpage ChristEDU.org.
515. 35:09ChristEDU.org. But they have to register.
516. 35:14Right, and that's September 25th through 27 in Lynchburg, Virginia.
517. 35:1926 and 27 in Lynchburg, adjacent to the Liberty University campus.
518. 35:27Sure, sure.
519. 35:29I want to talk about what's going on kind of in the world because more than ever I
520. 35:36think it's important that parents really take a proactive, very involved role in
521. 35:42the education of their kids and my day began in Iowa, Ray, and I was talking
522. 35:49with parents early this morning about what's going on in the public school
523. 35:54classroom and they were wanting to know what are our options and Alex what you recommend
524. 36:00and I said look. My mother was a public school teacher for 28 years, very, very godly woman.
525. 36:08My mom's in heaven now. My sister was a public school, high school science teacher, but the
526. 36:14public school has gone so far left, so far woke, anti-American globalist, Marxist. Do you
527. 36:22I feel like it's just imperative that parents get their kids in some different approach toward
528. 36:30their education than government-run schools.
529. 36:35Well I felt that way for 30-something years.
530. 36:38And I was kind of alone in advocating it over 30 years ago.
531. 36:45We stayed with it and kept going.
532. 36:47And now it's becoming a accepted position for Christians.
533. 36:54And more and more people are saying it's a necessary thing to do.
534. 36:59So yeah, I don't have any.
535. 37:01I felt it 30 years ago when I started Exodus Monday
536. 37:07that it was imperative for Christians to get their kids out.
537. 37:10But it was very hard to awaken the church
538. 37:12because so many people are embedded in the public school system and they thought somehow
539. 37:18it could be reformed, but it cannot be reformed. We've got a little pamphlet on that. If somebody
540. 37:25will write us at Exodus Mandate and ask for it, at Exodus Mandate.org will send them this
541. 37:31little pamphlet explaining why you can't take back the schools. And the longer people advocate
542. 37:37public school reform and try to run the school board and these things, they're wasting our
543. 37:42time and they won't have any success.
544. 37:48Do you feel like with the overwhelming majority that Trump won back in November and so many
545. 37:56seats were flipped?
546. 37:59And I do think some pastors were emboldened to begin to preach about just the moral crisis
547. 38:07that we're in.
548. 38:08Do you feel or do you see hope?
549. 38:12Even though we are so far down the river, morally, culturally, spiritually, but do you
550. 38:18believe there's a turnaround in process, not only the restoration of the church and the Christian
551. 38:23family, but even our constitutional government?
552. 38:26Ray, are you hopeful that perhaps sanity is coming back?
553. 38:32Yeah, I am, but I think that we will not see the recovery that we pray and look for, the
554. 38:39a Bible that we pray and hope and look for if we don't save our children. If the left could win
555. 38:45the abortion battle, the same sex marriage, socialism, and we still have the children and get our
556. 38:56children out into Christian schools and homeschooling, we win in the long run. That old saying he has
557. 39:03all the toys at the end wins. Well, he who has the children at the end wins. So we can
558. 39:09win this war if we save our children. And I'm happy to report that the Southern Baptist
559. 39:15are finally seem to be making a turnabout. We've got a group that goes to the Southern
560. 39:24Baptist annual meeting every year and they went a couple of years ago and then they came
561. 39:29They went to the most recent one in Dallas.
562. 39:31And he said, we were just swarmed.
563. 39:34The table was just swarmed by Southern Baptist ministers
564. 39:38asking for material about Christian education home schooling.
565. 39:41I said, what do you think's going on?
566. 39:44I couldn't get him listening to me a few years ago.
567. 39:46And he said, Ray, the transgender movement
568. 39:49is bobbing them up the wall.
569. 39:52Wow.
570. 39:52And he said, I hope they keep doing it.
571. 39:54I hope they keep more transgender the better,
572. 39:56because it's forcing these pastors to take stock.
573. 40:02I want to change gears a little bit and talk about, well, for one thing, how the media,
574. 40:10the secular media, the legacy, mainstream media, they've tried to demonize those at homeschool
575. 40:18and tried to say that right-wing Christians are just the problem.
576. 40:24But in their spirit of mischaracterizing things, tragically the two Minnesota lawmakers that
577. 40:33were shot, a man in Vance, Belter or BOE, L-T-E-R, Bolter, however it's pronounced, they're
578. 40:43trying to paint him as quote an evangelical Christian, an assertion to which I vehemently
579. 40:50disagree because, you know, no Christian, no follower of Christ commits murder like that,
580. 40:59a follower of Satan would, but not a follower of Jesus.
581. 41:04Ray if you would, talk about just the way the media tries to spin things and maybe in specifically
582. 41:11this, the June 14 shooting, how they're trying to say this guy was a conservative and a
583. 41:17Christian.
584. 41:18This there's an old saying that in the animal kingdom
585. 41:24It's to eat or be eaten in the human kingdom is to define or be defined
586. 41:31And they're trying to define us by this incident in Minnesota a few days ago
587. 41:38now is possible that a
588. 41:43Christian who is out of fellowship with God and in a state of rebellion and
589. 41:47and not following the Word of God could commit some terrible act.
590. 41:54We're not immune from that.
591. 41:55My old professor, Dallas Simonay,
592. 41:58goes said where there's light, there's bugs.
593. 42:02And this is the case of that.
594. 42:05This guy was affiliated with an aberrant Christian group,
595. 42:10if indeed it was Christian.
596. 42:11He went to Christ with the Nations Bible Institute
597. 42:15And I'm sure there are many wonderful people there,
598. 42:18but he graduated from that school.
599. 42:20It's in Dallas, and it has a tendency
600. 42:24to attract some more aberrant groups,
601. 42:27even though I'm not making a blanket condemnation,
602. 42:30but he's a graduate of that school.
603. 42:32Now, to their credit, they recently published a paper,
604. 42:37a statement yesterday, a day before repudiating him
605. 42:41and what he did and expressing great regret.
606. 42:44And I was real proud of them to see that.
607. 42:48But he, they saying he's an ordained minister.
608. 42:51I don't know that that's really true.
609. 42:53He could be a self-identified, ordained minister.
610. 42:58You know, I don't know what his credentials are
611. 43:00other than going to that school.
612. 43:02But he was in Africa speaking,
613. 43:05and I didn't see the sermon, but my son looked at it.
614. 43:07He said he was advocating for modern day apostles and prophets.
615. 43:12And that's the characteristic of what we call the new apostolic Reformation, which is a very major large
616. 43:20aberrant group and there's a book here published by
617. 43:25hollypithec and Doug
618. 43:27Guy, Guyvet
619. 43:29Yeah, I know Doug
620. 43:32Professor at Talbot or Viola and they've written four books on the new apostolic Reformation
621. 43:39here's one of them and
622. 43:41And so it's a very conservative group,
623. 43:45but they claim to be evangelical Christian,
624. 43:48but they have aberrant teachings
625. 43:50and such as modern-day apostles and prophets,
626. 43:53which will replace the governing system
627. 43:57of evangelicalism and even Catholicism,
628. 44:01what we would call preservatives of elders
629. 44:04and pastors and bishops.
630. 44:06And they're gonna replace that system
631. 44:08with apostles and prophets.
632. 44:10It's an era and he was advocating the Paulson and the
633. 44:14Prophet's own his sermon in Congo.
634. 44:17My son looked at it, he said a bunch of platitudes,
635. 44:21but you really wouldn't call it a sermon.
636. 44:24I think we need to reject that.
637. 44:27He's not one of us and we need to make that case and,
638. 44:31you know, not embrace what he is.
639. 44:35Yeah, and I mean to the watching world that really doesn't know
640. 44:39Christianity or maybe even doesn't know Christ. I mean when the word Christian is thrown out by the pop media
641. 44:46They just tend to want to lump all of us together
642. 44:50But like you said this new apostolic Reformation folks an apostle was one who?
643. 44:56Saw the risen Jesus or was with Jesus, you know Paul was an apostle Peter was an apostle
644. 45:03This man from the shooter from Minnesota Vance
645. 45:07Belter, he is not an apostle. There are aberrant movements, not only the new
646. 45:14apostolic Reformation, but the so-called letter Christians. I spoke on this last
647. 45:20week at the activate summit in Tupelo. And it might sound really pious, oh I only
648. 45:25read the red letters, the words of Christ, but to cut out the Old Testament and to
649. 45:31suppress and deny the writings of Paul and the rest of the New Testament. That
650. 45:36really goes, that's a heresy that was condemned by the early church goes back to a person named
651. 45:41Marcyon, Marcyonism, you know, to slice and dice the Bible to suit me. You know, Ray, it was interesting
652. 45:48and maybe you and I can do an entire show on some of these aberrant movements that we need to identify
653. 45:54that look, this is not classical Christian orthodoxy, but it's interesting regarding like the new
654. 46:01the red letter only Christians, whenever Christians have done like Marcian of old and said,
655. 46:10oh, well, I'm going to unhitch the Old Testament like Andy Stanley says do. Marcianism or cutting
656. 46:18the Bible up to suit ourselves always runs on a parallel track with anti-Semitism.
657. 46:25And isn't it interesting, as you and I have lived in the years recently of, you know,
658. 46:30professed Christians just making Christianity suit whatever they say it is. We've also seen a number of
659. 46:39unsettling transbot. We've seen a return of anti-Semitism.
660. 46:43That's what happens when we cut loose from the foundation.
661. 46:46That is crazy. Yeah. This man,
662. 46:50Vance Bolter,
663. 46:52we, I wouldn't claim him as one of our kind and we need to do everything we can to separate our
664. 46:58identity from his, but even if he could have been, the vast majority of these violent acts
665. 47:08are committed by the left.
666. 47:10I mean, it probably 10, 20 to 1.
667. 47:13But you know, every now and then somebody that might be in our camp is going to lose it.
668. 47:19And so because we're falling and sinful people and Christians are not immune to some kind
669. 47:27of, you know, act like that. But look at what happened with the anti-Semitic shooter in Washington,
670. 47:32D.C., recently, who shot down those two Jewish young people, they were engaged. You know,
671. 47:40they were Christians. They were messianic Jews. I mean, they were Jews, but they were Christian
672. 47:46Jews.
673. 47:47Two eight Colonel Moore two weeks ago today at the privilege of interviewing Michael Rydelnik,
674. 47:53who longtime faculty member at Moody Bible Institute
675. 47:56and born again Jewish man.
676. 47:57And he was talking about how that,
677. 48:01it was tragic that young couple was gunned down
678. 48:04at the Jewish Embassy, but praise God,
679. 48:06they were believers in Messiah,
680. 48:09they were believers in Jesus.
681. 48:11But hey folks, here's the thing, sinners can sin,
682. 48:15sinners sin.
683. 48:16Ray, you're always a blessing to talk to, so educational.
684. 48:20Give us your website again before we run out of time if you would.
685. 48:24ExosManDate.org.
686. 48:27And I'd urge your audience to go to Amazon and order this book by counterfeit kingdom.
687. 48:36By Doug Bivitt and Holly Piddick.
688. 48:40It's a classic.
689. 48:41And he's a Dallas Seminary graduate and taught at Talbot Seminary and a real credible scholar.
690. 48:47Yeah.
691. 48:48Very much so.
692. 48:49more Exodus mandate thanks for being with us. Alex McFarland here on my website,
693. 48:53AlexMcFarland.com, my travel schedule, our summer camps, Charlie Kirk is coming this
694. 48:59summer. A lot going on. Keep this in prayer. Please keep your radio tuned to the
695. 49:03American Family Radio Network and tell somebody about Jesus. The views and
696. 49:10opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the
697. 49:14American Family Association or American Family Radio.